Proof Of Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

Over and over we are told that when we die our spirit is alive in Heaven with eternal life and its only the body that will gain eternal life at the second coming.

Did Paul believe this?

1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor. 5:1-5

When will the spirit be saved? As soon as we die?

Paul says in the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS!

[Michael The Disciple]

Consider what Paul told his accusers:

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Notice the HOPE Paul was living for. THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Also note:

6: But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

Again Pauls HOPE is in the resurrection of the dead.

Now to me if it were true that as soon as we die we are in the joy of Heaven THAT would be a greater hope than the resurrection! Why did Paul not preach IT (eternal life without resurrection)?

He does not even mention it in his evangelistic work!

His theme over and over is THE RESURRECTION.

Think about the foundation doctrines of Christ:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now most people certainly emphasize "eternal life at death" doctrine. Like I said if it were true it WOULD be more important than the mere resurrection of a dead human body!

Yet Paul never includes it as a FOUNDATION DOCTRINE!

Isnt that amazing?

Something that important. Possibly the most important thing of all and its not even a foundation doctrine of the Church!

Oh friends are you beginning to sense something is wrong with this doctrine?

[Michael The Disciple]

What stands out about these verses of scripture?

13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Three times Paul mentions THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

If you had no preconceived idea and saw this phrase them which are asleep would you assume THEM to mean people or to mean dead bodies?

Why would Paul be so concerned about dead bodies?

If Saints thought their dead loved ones were in the glory of Heaven with the thrill of eternal life why would they be sorrowing over merely their dead bodies?

Think about it a minute.

What is Paul saying to these people about their loved ones?

14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Is he not saying THEY (not their dead body) are asleep in Jesus?

And in all this he NEVER MENTIONS that THEY might be alive in Heaven!

The last thing he tells them is to comfort each other with the WORDS HE JUST WROTE. We just saw several places in the book of Acts where Paul preached THE HOPE OF THE RESURRECTION (see post 42) so what hope do you suppose Paul was referring to in verse13? Our hope is the resurrection from death.

Now have you ever been to a funeral?

Most Preachers say "our dear Brother is in Heaven in the arms of Jesus".

Are they not comforting with different words than Paul?

Look again what HE told the Saints.

And finishes:

18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

See how different Pauls words were than todays Preachers?

Truth=The dead Saints sleep in Jesus.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Pressing On,

That was meant for me. Everyone else I guess can handle The KJV.

No, a lot need something other than the KJV.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I will not be teaching ANYONE they can enter the Kingdom of Yeshua the Messiah if they are doing bad works.

Oh yes and how do you suppose the fact that I use the original name of the Messiah produces salvation by works?

You are way out of the park, bro. Of course no one goes to glory if they do bad works, but Paul is not speaking in that context of works that send one to hell.

Again, we are not saved by works.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

How comical! The poor naked spirit sitting in Heaven for thousands of years groaning for its body!

See how you misread it? The spirit is not groaning to get a body but groaning while in the MORTAL BODY to get out of it and have an immortal one. The groaning is associated with being inside the mortal body.

Mike the truth is that it is in THESE MORTAL BODIES that we groan! I think you must be the founder of this doctrine.

You claim mistaken things about my beliefs before you know them!

I see nothing in 1 Cor. 15 about the spirit and soul rejoining the body at resurrection.

Put 2 Cor 5 with 1 Cor 15 and read about nakedness.

Bro., if you were correct, and the phrase "(5:8) KJV be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" is just wishful thinking that is not possible to experience, then it is impossible to experience this as well: "(5:6)whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord". The manner of language demands it!

I do see where Paul says that THE DEAD will be made ALIVE at the second coming!

What is dead? THE BODY!

22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Cor. 15:22-23

The context of that chapter is THE BODY.

1Co 15:35 KJV But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

Reading it as it is reveals those who are DEAD being MADE ALIVE.

DEAD BODIES!

[quote]We are willing to be absent from THIS BODY and present with the Lord. Paul says when it will happen. When we are MADE ALIVE at the second coming.[./quote]

No, and that is why Paul spoke of being naked without the body.

Your error is blatantly obvious when you claim something is not possible that Paul willed. Being absent from the body and present with the Lord. If someone can be absent from the body, there is no soul sleep. The BODY alone sleeps in death. Being absent from the body is possible, or Paul would not have said it.

Wrong Michael. We have the downpayment of it.

Nonsense. You have to call John a liar since John said we HAVE eternal life. And you never paid attention to what I said ETERNAL means. Eternal means no beginning nor ending. Only GOD is eternal. And WE HAVE GOD NOW.

13: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14: Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Eph. 1:13-14

Where does it say eternal life is not our's yet in your quote???? You only quoted something that has nothing to do with whether or not we have eternal life. Meanwhile, I quoted John who said we have eternal life.

For one thing, ONLY GOD is eternal (no beginning nor ending). You are blowing it every time you say anything that overlooks the fact that ONLY GOD IS ETERNAL. So, when we HAVE HIS SPIRIT, whether it is a downpayment or not, we HAVE eternal life. So, you not only quote nothing that deals with eternal life in the context, but also I quoted where John said we ahev eternal life.

Bro., you are misreading this so badly I cannot begin to describe it.

That is like this:

22: For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23: And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
Romans 8:22-25

The firstfruits and the earnest (Holy Spirit) stands in for eternal life until we receive it.

No, IT IS ETERNAL LIFE. Do you not believe the SPIRIT IS ETERNAL? We only have not been affected by that Spirit IN OUR BODIES. That will come later, but His Spirit is eternal, (no beginning and no end).

Until you properly define ETERNAL, you will not get it.

Again we see that its in our MORTAL BODY that we are groaning.

Exactly what i said.

Souls are immortal?

29: Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

That is speaking of the body. Do you not know the difference between spirit, soul and body? SOULS ARE NOT BURIED. BODIES are buried. And I am speaking about redeemed souls.

Peter said DAVID was both dead and buried in the grave.

It was DAVID. Not merely Davids body! Nothing about him being an immortal soul.

SOULS ARE NOT BURIED. Show me where souls are buried. And why did Paul say he could be absent from the body????

Thats your words. Here is Pauls.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

All this is speaking of entirety of spirit, soul and body. Context context context.

[quote]Those who seek IMMORTALITY receive what? ETERNAL LIFE!

If John said we HAVE eternal life, and Paul said we shall receive it, and we know the BODY is explicitly mentioned in lieu of bodily redemption, then Romans 2 refers to bodily immortality. That is all we lack right now. Spirit is redeemed already, and souls IS BEING REDEEMED, and body shall be redeemed.

Mike I never JUMPED to quick about this. I taught the same doctrine you now teach for 16 years.

You jumped too quick since you never considered the option that a soul can be naked outside the body.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Here is more proof.

When will we receive eternal life?

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

Eternal life is granted IN THE WORLD TO COME.

Guess what? That world has not yet come.

Brother, learn what eternal means. Until you learn that, you will never get it.

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Eternal means HAVE NO BEGINNING. ONLY GOD is eternal. We may live with no ending, but since we had a beginning we will never be eternal.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Over and over we are told that when we die our spirit is alive in Heaven with eternal life and its only the body that will gain eternal life at the second coming.

Did Paul believe this?

1: It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2: And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3: For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4: In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5: To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1 Cor. 5:1-5

When will the spirit be saved? As soon as we die?

Paul says in the DAY OF THE LORD JESUS!

Oh how you misread and overlook context.

WOW.

You always miss context. This man was a sinner, unsaved. He was a fornicator. He was not saved when Paul wrote those words, but was lost unlike believers serving God. And since he was not saved, he was given over to satan SO THAT HE MIGHT REPENT AND BE SAVED. If it took destruction of his body to bring him there, so be it, Paul said.

You cannot use that reference and point to someone serving God and say their spirits are not saved until the destruction of their bodies.

Man oh man, brother!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Consider what Paul told his accusers:

14: But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
15: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15

Notice the HOPE Paul was living for. THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

So what? I agree!

Also note:

6: But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question. Acts 23:6

Again Pauls HOPE is in the resurrection of the dead.

I agree. So what???

Now to me if it were true that as soon as we die we are in the joy of Heaven THAT would be a greater hope than the resurrection! Why did Paul not preach IT (eternal life without resurrection)?

John said wee have eternal life NOW, since GOD IS eternal life, and having Him in us causes us to be saved. You still do not understand what eternal means. You think it means to live forever, when you are unaware of the fact it means to have no beginning nor ending.

Paul never used the word ETERNAL in anything you quoted here.

Paul knew that spirit and soul and body would be wholly redeemed. Spirit is redeemed NOW, and soul IS BEING REDEEMED and BODY SHALL BE REDEEMED. Paul hoped for the wholeness of our entirety of being.

Again, you claim Paul willed for something that is not possible. Absence from body to be present with the Lord. You deny a plain statement, and then propose things never stated at all, such as resurrection is when the soul and spirit is made immortal.

He does not even mention it in his evangelistic work!

His theme over and over is THE RESURRECTION.

I hope for the resurrection as well! That says nothing against the fact that my soul is absent from the body upon death and present with the Lord.

WHY DID THE LORD TELL THE THIEF ON THE CROSS HE WOULD BE WITH HIM IN PARADISE THAT DAY???

Think about the foundation doctrines of Christ:

1: Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2: Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2

Now most people certainly emphasize "eternal life at death" doctrine. Like I said if it were true it WOULD be more important than the mere resurrection of a dead human body!

No. Nothing in those principles contradicts that absence from the body means presence with the Lord. It's not over until it's over when spirit, soul and body are wholly redeemed together. We are incomplete until the resurrection.

All you can do is assume thoughts into the bible between the lines since nothing states what you claim. meanwhile you take a claim by Paul concerning absence from the body and presence with the Lord and say IT IS NOT POSSIBLE! Okaaaay!

Yet Paul never includes it as a FOUNDATION DOCTRINE!

Isnt that amazing?

What? If we are going to talk about what is foundational, and you are so insistent upon SOUL SLEEP, then pray tell, where does the foundations list anything about SOUL SLEEP that you are so emphatic about? Amazing how the bible does not list soul sleep as a foundational doctrine.

The fact is some details of the salvation process are not foundational, and Hebrews 6 lists the major issues. And since salvation is not complete until the body is made immortal, and Heb 6 listed major foundations, that is why soul presence with God upon absence from the body is not mentioned.

If my belief must be listed as a foundation, then so must your contradictory belief, and it is not.

Something that important. Possibly the most important thing of all and its not even a foundation doctrine of the Church!

Funny how soul sleep is not mentioned. Something so important.

Oh friends are you beginning to sense something is wrong with this doctrine?

When you deny a statement Paul made as though Paul fantasized over something not possible, and willed for something Jesus could never do for us (that is, cause us to be absent from the body to be present with the Lord), then you are saying Paul wanted something God was unable to do! You are saying there is a lack in what God can do for us, leaving us with believers who can come up with a better idea than God thought to supply: Absence from the body to be present with the Lord.

Who is the one who is REALLY proposing a fishy doctrine?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

What stands out about these verses of scripture?

13: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Three times Paul mentions THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP.

...SPEAKING OF THE BODIES OF THESE PEOPLE.

That is why Jesus could say that the thief would be with him THAT DAY HE DIED! Soul sleepers must say Jesus lied, and actually meant the man would FEEL LIKE IT WAS THAT DAY, since his soul was to sleep for two thousand years. But why would Jesus say THAT DAY? Jesus does not lie.

If you had no preconceived idea and saw this phrase them which are asleep would you assume THEM to mean people or to mean dead bodies?

Why would Paul be so concerned about dead bodies?

We are supposed to read the entirety of the bible and obtain understanding. And reading about BODIES in 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15, and statements such as those given to the penitent thief, help us understand the BODY is referred to in 1 Thess 4 as sleeping.

If Saints thought their dead loved ones were in the glory of Heaven with the thrill of eternal life why would they be sorrowing over merely their dead bodies?

You never learned what eternal means.

And you assume so many things you claim foundational, that are never stated expressly in scripture. Where does it say the SOUL sleeps? I claim it is the BODY, and show you the CONTEXT of 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15 IS THE BODY and not soul. Those passages actually say BODY. But you refute that in favour of something never stated expressly!

Since the BODY lays down and is inactive, and rises again in resurrection to once again be active, it is likened to sleep when the similar things occurs.

These people felt the person who died is perished! Paul dealt with the same issue in 1 Cor 15 in regards to the BODY. And since 2 Cor 5:8 says the person is absent from the body upon death, and present with the Lord, and we cannot contradict scripture with a thought from any other given scripture, the idea is the BODY in 1 Thess 4.

Scholars agree!

Originally Posted by JFB

them which are asleep — The oldest manuscripts read present tense, “them which are sleeping”; the same as “the dead in Christ” (1Th_4:16), to whose bodies (Dan_12:2, not their souls; Ecc_12:7; 2Co_5:8)

On 2 Cor 5:8

Originally Posted by Albert Barnes

That world where the Redeemer is, is heaven. This also proves that the spirits of the saints, when they depart, are with the Redeemer; that is, are at once taken to heaven. It demonstrates:

(1) That they are not annihilated.

(2) that they do not sleep, and remain in an unconscious state, as Dr. Priestley supposes.

(3) that they are not in some intermediate state, either in a state of purgatory, as the Papists suppose, or a state where all the souls of the just and the unjust are assembled in a common abode, as many Protestants have supposed; but,

(4) That they dwell with Christ; they are with the Lord (πρὸς τὸν Κυρίον pros ton Kurion). They abide in his presence; they partake of his joy and his glory; they are permitted to sit with him in his throne; Rev_3:21.

The same idea the Saviour expressed to the dying thief, when he said, “today shalt thou be with me in paradise;” Luk_23:43.

Originally Posted by People's New Testament

Therefore we are always confident. Because of what is stated in 2Co_5:5. Paul knew, when danger threatened, that to be in the body was to be absent from the Lord's presence, and that if he was slain and thus left the body, he would go at once to the presence of the Lord.

Originally Posted by Gill

to be absent from the body; that is, to die, to depart out of this world. The interval between death, and the resurrection, is a state of absence from the body, during which time the soul is disembodied, and exists in a separate state; not in a state of inactivity and sleep, for that would not be desirable, but of happiness and glory, enjoying the presence of God, and praising of him, believing and waiting for the resurrection of the body, when both will be united together again; and after that there will be no more absence, neither from the body, nor from the Lord:

Think about it a minute.

No, you actually mean, "Insert some thoughts that are not in the bible, that actually refute things that ARE in the bible, so you can agree with what I am saying."

What is Paul saying to these people about their loved ones?

14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Is he not saying THEY (not their dead body) are asleep in Jesus?

Because of the truths related in the entirety of the bible, he is referring to the BODIES of the saints. This is where false doctrine comes in all the time -- taking one verse and not correlating it together with all the rest of the bible about the same subject line.

God bless, anyway!