Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Felicity

There is no consensus in regard to what all baptism accomplishes amongst OPs.

that appears to be quite a true statement.

some have relegated it to being an essential outward demonstration of inward change.

still others believe it to be an esssential just because.

and others believe it to be a response to the faith that came by hearing of a deliverance being made, a way of escape from the tyranny of sin.

some really do believe that Israel's deliverence from Egypt's captivity and the judgement that overflowed their former slavemaster is a type and shadow of what is accomplished when we are buried with him in the waters of baptism.

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Isn't that the debate when and how we come into fellowship w/ God???

I don't have to agree with your faulty assessment on how works save me ... but that's what I'm here for .

Proceed .. justification and remission... when and how???

ahh yes it is the debate. on how we come into fellowship with God. truely it is. but clearly when accused of "mental assent" you went wobbly. did you not? yet with the same breath you accuse others in the same manner.

as one of your friends recently said "quid quo pro"? or some such...

I will try to outline the delima, give me some time.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Ferd

ahh yes it is the debate. on how we come into fellowship with God. truely it is. but clearly when accused of "mental assent" you went wobbly. did you not? yet with the same breath you accuse others in the same manner.

as one of your friends recently said "quid quo pro"? or some such...

I will try to outline the delima, give me some time.

I won't address your jabs .. I'll sit and wait on your exegesis.

[Ferd]

So in a nutshell here is the dilemma

We are either saved at repentance or some other place. How does it work?

Peter said to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and then you shall receive the Holy Ghost.

So the problem is

Why repent and be baptized for remission?

One can say that sins are not even forgiven to the unsaved. That only those who have both repented and been baptized have had sin remitted.

But we have a problem here. Both Acts and our own experience shows us that people will receive the Holy Ghost well before baptism and therefore clearly God has forgiven them any debt they owe for their sinful life…right?

Therefore, Baptism has no place in the equation.

BUT. When Peter was asked what one needed to do, he clearly indicates that part of what is needed is baptism in Jesus Name. period. You cannot scholar your way around that.

Later when Peter preaches to Cornelius they receive the Holy Ghost before baptism. What does Peter do? Baptizes them.

Later, later, when Paul finds some folk that had been baptized by John the Baptist (the same baptism that Jesus himself had), what does Paul do? He asks 2 questions: Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? Clearly this indicates that belief (not simple mental assent) was not enough. THEN he finds out how they were baptized.
These fellows had 2 things, honest heartfelt belief strong enough that they were still believers long after John was dead, and the same baptism that Jesus Himself had….. And neither were enough. Paul explains the way more perfectly to them and they both receive the Holy Ghost, and are re-baptized.

You ask what brings remission of sin. I ask what brings us into fellowship with Christ? What restores our relationship with God? How are we saved? My answer is, do what Peter said do. I am not smart enough nor educated enough to parse Greek. “Eis” isn’t English so when I say, it means “for the purpose of” instead of “because of” I do so on the strength of what I have read from other people.

But I do know what Peter said do. And I know what Peter further demonstrated repeatedly. And I know what message Paul preached. How then is one saved? My mind isn’t complicated enough to grasp more than the scripture teaches. Repent and be Baptized for (the purpose of) the remission of sins, and you shall receive the Holy Ghost….

I guess one would be in a better position to say that ones sins are remitted when one has repented and been baptized and the proof is, they will have the Holy Ghost as evidenced by speaking in tongues. ….regardless of the order of operation….(this should get me in trouble with everyone now…). So there you have it. Remission, the putting away of sin, is completed in the waters of Baptism. Not because one can speak Greek nor because one can read of Cornelius, nor because of what Paul had to say about circumcision, but because the bible says it that way.

The scripture teaches us that Israel is a type and a shadow for the church. The crossing of the red sea therefore is as well. We know that the crossing caused the death of the Army of Egypt so to, baptism destroys the power that sin has over your life.

[Steve Epley]

No one has recieved remission of sins from Pentecost until present without being baptized in Jesus Name thus they were NOT justified. I know me saying this will shock you.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

No one has recieved remission of sins from Pentecost until present without being baptized in Jesus Name thus they were NOT justified. I know me saying this will shock you.

and when and how where OT saints' sins remitted ...????

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

and when and how where OT saints' sins remitted ...????

They were NOT remitted in their lifetime Calvary rolled back those sins that were postponed by sacrifices until Calvary.

[Neck]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Interestingly, I have come to realize there are at least 3 schools of thought on the relational concepts of justification and remission in the PAJC view.

All believe remission of sins takes place at water baptism ... but there is no consensus on when we experience justification.

Here are the 3 schools of thought -

Some PAJCers believe justification happens before baptism and remission at baptism


Sabellius:


Some believe justification happens after water baptism along with remission

Elder Epley:








Some believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism

David Bernard, The New Birth



_______________________________

The questions that beg to be asked are:

1. What is justification? When does it happen?
2. What is remission? Does it happen at water baptism?
3. What are the underlying reasons for this difference of opinion?

Let's refrain from analogies and let's make our points based on the Word.

All are on the road to salvation. Of which will not be achieved until you step out of this life.

Rest in the grave.

Then are called to that city.

So on the road get focused on completing the journey.

[SDG]

The UPCI'S Articles of Faith clearly state that it is their position that justification and remission happen at repentance and conversion:

The Articles of Faith of the United Pentecostal Church International (UPCI) locate justification under the heading “Repentance,” which until 1995 (the first fifty years of existence for the UPCI) was titled “Repentance and Conversion.”

The first two sentences of this article read, “Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).” -

Daniel Seagraves, symposium

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

They were NOT remitted in their lifetime Calvary rolled back those sins that were postponed by sacrifices until Calvary.

And yet God said that as far as the west was from the east so far were our transgressions removed from Him. Ps. 103:12