The decision made by the UPC elders against owning a TV was made decades and decades ago. The decision was accompanied by tongues and interpretation. Has God blessed the organization since then? Yes he has, for decades and decades. The benefits of the Organization now came from the price that has been paid in the past for decades.
Did Jesus know that issues were going to come up in the church after he was gone in which MEN would have to discuss make decisions? Yes he did - read Matt 18. Did Jesus in the same passage say that whatever they - MEN - decided upon, that he would stand behind them and bind/loose them in heaven? Yes he did. Do we have a very practical example of that in Acts? Yes we do concerning circumcision of the Gentiles. Did the elders of the church come together and talk about it and make a decision in which afterwards they wrote that "it seemed good unto the Holy Ghost and unto us..."; indicating that somehow God showed by His Spirit in man that he backed up the decision? Yes they did.
Do you think the decision was made by a bunch of old country bumkins who didn't know what they were doing? Do you think that we are better than them because we are in the 21st century now?
Now concerning holiness and people one is witnessing to who are not yet saved, Jesus said this...
Joh 16:12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
This means that people cannot bear certain things UNTIL AFTER they are converted. That is why you don't see any/much teaching of Jesus to HIS disciples concerning things He requires of His people about holiness. That is why you read about holiness stuff in the epistles - letters written to churches/people who were already saved. That is why you don't read about Jesus teaching about hair in the gospels.
With people who are lost, the most important thing is for them to first get saved, by hearing the preaching/teaching of the gospel - the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and how it shows that we can now be born again. You don't clean a fish before you catch it - you have to catch it first.
Then after they are saved, they grow in grace and knowledge and live a life of loving obedience to the one who first loved them. Usually a person who loves the Lord with everything doesn't have a problem doing the things that He wants them to. Because we are no longer our own, we have been bought with a price. Let the Pastor preach/teach the word and the principles based upon the word and let the Holy Ghost convict.
Holiness standards are based upon biblical principles such as:
- loving not the world neither the things that are in the world
- coming out from among them and being separate
- touch not the unclean thing
- friendship with the world is emnity with God
- present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy, and acceptable unto God which is your reasonable service
- being not conformed to this world, but being transformed
- not being brought under the power of any
- abstain from ALL appearance of evil
- not setting any wicked thing before our eyes
- be careful what you hear
- modesty in clothing
- not wearing gold or silver
- not partaking of the modern idols of the world; etc
Apostolic does NOT mean inward focus only with NO outward focus on evangelizing. Apostolic churches are all about evangelizing and winning the lost. My church has grown considerably since my Pastor took it over almost 30 years ago. I'm not aware of any 1 Apostolic church whose sole focus is only inwardly.
Incidentally, there is one well-known church in our city that has had great growth, but you know at what cost? They don't preach the apostle's doctrine. What good is growth if they compromise truth? What good is growth if they convince a whole city that they are saved when in fact they are not. They make them 2 fold more the child of hell because you have to first convince them that they are deceived and are still lost FIRST before you can get them to do anything to be REALLY saved.
If you are trying to link God blessing the UPC primarily to its stance on television I'm not sure that we will ever see things the same. But let me ask you this. If God does continue to bless the UPC, will you accept that it is in part due to God's approval of Resolution 4? If so, I have to tell you that we have been tremendously blessed since then in our local church. The district conference that we just had the the best attended and most impactful in a while. I'm consistently hearing reports of the same from many people.
Also, don't you realize that this is not the first teaching or stance that has been reversed...including teaching against the radio.
I don't care how you slice it, you cannot justify the double standard of the TV/internet thing. All I'm saying is that if you want to be taken seriously by people, you have to get rid of your internet presence.
Our church is in explosive revival as we speak, and we don't compromise truth.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
No I won't say that God blessed the UPC just because of TV; other church groups who don't have truth have taken stands against tv in the past before.
I'm glad that your church is experiencing revival and I hope the best for your church and the UPC.
Incidentally, there is a difference b/n Res 4 being passed and owning a television in one's house. Resolution 4 has not affected the requirement of not owning a television in the UPC manual as far as I know, however, there are many that believe that allowing tv everywhere in the UPC is coming as licensed UPC ministers have been doing so for years without any discipline.
As for me, I've done my experimenting with TV when I left the UPC and went to a church pastored by an x-UPC'er and came to the same conclusion for myself - I am stronger without TV; so I went back to the UPC/WPF church where I was planted and have rec'd benefits for doing so.
I use the internet quite a lot without violating any of my convictions, therefore, why should I get rid of my internet presence? Using the internet, do I see murder, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, swear words? No. Do I join in partaking of the world's idols on the internet? No. Do I see a constant stream of men and women who do not abide by things taught in the bible? No. Do I sit for hours and get into a passive state of mind that makes me more susceptible to the things being being shown me that are inspired by some sinner's imagination? No.
Now I can't speak for others who do not have a tv but use the internet. If they are partaking of the same evils on the internet, then I would agree that there is no difference. If one is watching the same filth streamed in their pc/web browser that is on tv, then they have not forsaken the same stuff.
__________________
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls...
No I won't say that God blessed the UPC just because of TV; other church groups who don't have truth have taken stands against tv in the past before.
I'm glad that your church is experiencing revival and I hope the best for your church and the UPC.
Incidentally, there is a difference b/n Res 4 being passed and owning a television in one's house. Resolution 4 has not affected the requirement of not owning a television in the UPC manual as far as I know, however, there are many that believe that allowing tv everywhere in the UPC is coming as licensed UPC ministers have been doing so for years without any discipline.
As for me, I've done my experimenting with TV when I left the UPC and went to a church pastored by an x-UPC'er and came to the same conclusion for myself - I am stronger without TV; so I went back to the UPC/WPF church where I was planted and have rec'd benefits for doing so.
I use the internet quite a lot without violating any of my convictions, therefore, why should I get rid of my internet presence? Using the internet, do I see murder, pornography, lying, cheating, stealing, adultery, swear words? No. Do I join in partaking of the world's idols on the internet? No. Do I see a constant stream of men and women who do not abide by things taught in the bible? No. Do I sit for hours and get into a passive state of mind that makes me more susceptible to the things being being shown me that are inspired by some sinner's imagination? No.
Now I can't speak for others who do not have a tv but use the internet. If they are partaking of the same evils on the internet, then I would agree that there is no difference. If one is watching the same filth streamed in their pc/web browser that is on tv, then they have not forsaken the same stuff.
Your personal testimony is an example of why we should be teaching Biblical principles. Just set no evil thing before your eyes...no matter where they are. If you are unable to obey that principle when around a TV...then don't be around a TV. There are many who can responsibly watch a TV and avoid all of the evil things that you mentioned (not sure what channels you were watching though, ), but cannot resist the temptation of those things that you listed (which can much more readily be found online in much more extreme forms and can even come to you without you looking for it). Plus there is the whole added dimension of the interpersonal relationships that can be developed online. What happens when nobody has TVs anymore because they are completely obsolete, but we have an entire generation of people who have problems with the new technologies because instead of instilling Biblical principle, we were busy railing against a specific technology.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Your personal testimony is an example of why we should be teaching Biblical principles. Just set no evil thing before your eyes...no matter where they are. If you are unable to obey that principle when around a TV...then don't be around a TV. There are many who can responsibly watch a TV and avoid all of the evil things that you mentioned (not sure what channels you were watching though, ), but cannot resist the temptation of those things that you listed (which can much more readily be found online in much more extreme forms and can even come to you without you looking for it). Plus there is the whole added dimension of the interpersonal relationships that can be developed online. What happens when nobody has TVs anymore because they are completely obsolete, but we have an entire generation of people who have problems with the new technologies because instead of instilling Biblical principle, we were busy railing against a specific technology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
Also TV is a much more effective evangelism tool than the internet.
Tstew,
Pertaining to your first quote, I agree that the teaching of principles is paramount to developing and maintaining a healthy/Godly lifestyle. The scriptures, however, teach that we are like sheep which do not have a good sense of direction, and often get into great difficulty when left to their own devices. We are no different! I have taught principles to my children, yet that did not negate the necessity for rules that would reinforce/instill those principles through practical application.
The whole "how can you be against TV and not against internet" is really a flawed idea IMO. That is like saying how can you be against illegal/recreational drugs and not against prescribed medication for real health issues. The purposes/intent are totally different. There is no doubt that principles must be in place in ones life for them to be safe no matter where they are. However, TV was invented for the sole purpose of entertainment, and when the average person sits down to watch TV, they are appealing to the lust of the eyes and of the flesh. This makes them more susceptible to being influenced by ungodly, evil, communications which corrupt good manners.
With regard to your second quote, I would be very interested what you base your statement on. From all the statistics that I have studied the exact opposite is true. The denominal world has gone to great lengths to establish well documented stats that show the ineffectiveness of TV advertising for churches. This is why the large churches do not advertise on TV. (If you watch TV, think about when the last time was that you saw a ad/commercial promoting a local denominal church. I am not talking about an ad promoting their broadcast, but rather advertising their church.) They discovered that while TV advertising is very effective for retail, goods and services, it was not effective for churches.
The denominal world has established that they do not use TV broadcasting for evangelism. In fact Rod Parsley's ministry and several others have stated that not one new convert has been added to their church thru TV, but that they use TV to raise money with which to fund their operation. That is why when Rod Parsley started out he did 20 minutes of preaching and 10 minutes of commercials, now he has 20 minutes of commercials and 10 minutes of preaching. They have grown their ministry to a great extent from TV, but not by new conversions, the growth has been from people who saw the broadcast and moved to the area to attend the church because they liked the program or the preacher.
When a person is logged into the internet and is looking at a church's website they are intellectually engaged, (not just being entertained) and because of this, they are more likely to be effected by what they see/hear.
You know I love ya but to use as an analogy about someone preaching against TV but not the internet with illegal drug use vs. prescritpion drugs is comparing apples and oranges.
In other words TV vs internet does not have the same relationship as illegal drug use vs. prescription drug use.
I am pleased that many legalists are taking a more thoughtful approach to the internet vs tv by not ouright banning it but rather teaching Christian principles in choices.What a shame that was not done with TV.
The ironic thing is that while a case can be made there are much more educational / positive opportunities on the internet it is also true there is much more access to pornography and evil on the internet than on all but the most extrem pay TV channels.
I have hundreds of TV channels on my DISH Satellite system but because I dont have HBO, Showtime, etc I cannot find anything on those hunddreds of channels as evil as I can find in 60 seconds on the internet.
Pertaining to your first quote, I agree that the teaching of principles is paramount to developing and maintaining a healthy/Godly lifestyle. The scriptures, however, teach that we are like sheep which do not have a good sense of direction, and often get into great difficulty when left to their own devices. We are no different! I have taught principles to my children, yet that did not negate the necessity for rules that would reinforce/instill those principles through practical application.
The whole "how can you be against TV and not against internet" is really a flawed idea IMO. That is like saying how can you be against illegal/recreational drugs and not against prescribed medication for real health issues. The purposes/intent are totally different. There is no doubt that principles must be in place in ones life for them to be safe no matter where they are. However, TV was invented for the sole purpose of entertainment, and when the average person sits down to watch TV, they are appealing to the lust of the eyes and of the flesh. This makes them more susceptible to being influenced by ungodly, evil, communications which corrupt good manners.
With regard to your second quote, I would be very interested what you base your statement on. From all the statistics that I have studied the exact opposite is true. The denominal world has gone to great lengths to establish well documented stats that show the ineffectiveness of TV advertising for churches. This is why the large churches do not advertise on TV. (If you watch TV, think about when the last time was that you saw a ad/commercial promoting a local denominal church. I am not talking about an ad promoting their broadcast, but rather advertising their church.) They discovered that while TV advertising is very effective for retail, goods and services, it was not effective for churches.
The denominal world has established that they do not use TV broadcasting for evangelism. In fact Rod Parsley's ministry and several others have stated that not one new convert has been added to their church thru TV, but that they use TV to raise money with which to fund their operation. That is why when Rod Parsley started out he did 20 minutes of preaching and 10 minutes of commercials, now he has 20 minutes of commercials and 10 minutes of preaching. They have grown their ministry to a great extent from TV, but not by new conversions, the growth has been from people who saw the broadcast and moved to the area to attend the church because they liked the program or the preacher.
When a person is logged into the internet and is looking at a church's website they are intellectually engaged, (not just being entertained) and because of this, they are more likely to be effected by what they see/hear.
Yes, but the average sheep does not have the Holy Ghost living inside of it to give it a good sense of direction. If my sense of direction came primarily from what my pastor said and not from my personal prayer life, relationship with the Good Shepherd, the leading of the Holy Ghost, the illuminating word which is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path...I would be pretty concerned.
Your analogy with all due respect is flawed. The stance you have is like someone having told people for years not to take Tylenol due to the potential side affects, but embracing the taking of much more dangerous habit forming drugs like OxyContin that have much more serious potential side affects.
It is a misnomer that people have used to say that the TV is only for entertainment. There is plenty of educational and informational information that you can choose to watch. There are channels that only provide such content....And by the way, not all entertainment is bad. Even the things that I would watch for entertainment would not violate my Biblical principles. Is there a difference between watching Bassmaster fishing on ESPN and watching someone fish from your boat. Is there a difference between your children watching Barney, Blue's Clues and Sesame Street via DVD or TV.
In regards to the other issue. To answer your question, in Houston many churches spend a lot of money advertising their churches with phenomenal results. A young pastor started a church called Higher Dimensions and due to an aggressive ad campaign, the church became a household name and has thousands of members. Had I never seen the commercials (while not even looking for his church), they could exist for 50 years and I would never know it.
I can tell you that the Fellowship of the Woodlands has opened a second location not far from my house. I can tell you this because they advertised it aggressively. I can tell you that Second Baptist is the "One Church with Five Locations" because that is there ad campaign. And I could go on and on believe me.
This underscores why I said that TV advertising is more effective than the internet. I was not looking for these churches. I did not know the names of these churches to even search for them in the first place. The millions of people who still do not have cable only have a half dozen or so viewing options. People with basic cable may have 70 or so. The advanced cable gives you options in the hundreds. Whereas the internet has an infinite amount of viewing options.
The chances of reaching someone who is watching 6 channels are pretty good. A dozen adds on your local stations would hit so many people.
I maintain our churches website and I keep up with the site traffic. I did list us with as many search engines as possible...but the fact remains that someone would have to be looking for us, and specifically our kind in order for us to have a chance at reaching them.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
You know I love ya but to use as an analogy about someone preaching against TV but not the internet with illegal drug use vs. prescritpion drugs is comparing apples and oranges.
In other words TV vs internet does not have the same relationship as illegal drug use vs. prescription drug use.
I am pleased that many legalists are taking a more thoughtful approach to the internet vs tv by not ouright banning it but rather teaching Christian principles in choices.What a shame that was not done with TV.
The ironic thing is that while a case can be made there are much more educational / positive opportunities on the internet it is also true there is much more access to pornography and evil on the internet than on all but the most extrem pay TV channels.
I have hundreds of TV channels on my DISH Satellite system but because I dont have HBO, Showtime, etc I cannot find anything on those hunddreds of channels as evil as I can find in 60 seconds on the internet.
Filters and blocks.
__________________
There is a conspiracy of silence in the land.
You know I love ya but to use as an analogy about someone preaching against TV but not the internet with illegal drug use vs. prescritpion drugs is comparing apples and oranges.
In other words TV vs internet does not have the same relationship as illegal drug use vs. prescription drug use.
I am pleased that many legalists are taking a more thoughtful approach to the internet vs tv by not ouright banning it but rather teaching Christian principles in choices.What a shame that was not done with TV.
The ironic thing is that while a case can be made there are much more educational / positive opportunities on the internet it is also true there is much more access to pornography and evil on the internet than on all but the most extrem pay TV channels.
I have hundreds of TV channels on my DISH Satellite system but because I dont have HBO, Showtime, etc I cannot find anything on those hunddreds of channels as evil as I can find in 60 seconds on the internet.
CC1,
I think you and I agree on a quite a few things however, I don't think it is a bad comparison. The basic questioning is the same. Neither one IMO is good for you (TV/internet) (recreational/illegal drugs/prescription) but out of the four the internet and prescription drugs have beneficial uses. Just like prescription drugs can be misused and people can become addicted to them, (and it has been proven that these types of addictions are usually harder to break because the addicted person feels that the addiction is somewhat justified because it came from a doctor) so the internet can be used wrongfully.
On the other hand I find it somewhat humorous that you think those opposed to TV are legalists. Many of the Hollywood elite have banned TV from their homes, and from their children because they understand the negative impact it has on society as a whole, and young people in particular. If you would survey the majority of people (non-Apostolic) the large majority will tell you that they think the majority of programming on TV is bad, and most people don't have a problem getting rid of it for this reason. The greatest resistance that I have seen, is from folks who have been in church and have slowly become desensitized.
I recently spoke to a group of 60+ pastors, many of whom now embrace TV. I was not there to lambast them about TV, nor to condemn them. I simply asked this question: Since you have embraced TV has your prayer life diminished, stayed the same, or intensified? Has your relationship with God grown stronger, weaker, or stayed the same? Has your church become more evangelistic, less, or stayed the same? After several of these questions, I received an overwhelming response indicating that in every area there had been a marked decrease, but they had not noticed it because it happened slowly.
), but cannot resist the temptation of those things that you listed (which can much more readily be found online in much more extreme forms and can even come to you without you looking for it). Plus there is the whole added dimension of the interpersonal relationships that can be developed online.
Re: Have You Been to WWPF Lately?
however, I don't think it is a bad comparison. The basic questioning is the same. Neither one IMO is good for you (TV/internet) (recreational/illegal drugs/prescription) but out of the four the internet and prescription drugs have beneficial uses. Just like prescription drugs can be misused and people can become addicted to them, (and it has been proven that these types of addictions are usually harder to break because the addicted person feels that the addiction is somewhat justified because it came from a doctor) so the internet can be used wrongfully. 
Linear Mode
