Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Newman

Perhaps they all are abusive and incestious.

BUT how can the government take custody of the kids and then take weeks attempting to find out what they can actually charge them with?

This should terrify all parents.

How can they charge the parents with anything when they can't even figure out who the parents are?

I've been hearing the children don't give last names, keep changing their names, and some don't even really know who their real parents are.

It is now taking DNA testing to determine WHO they CAN charge.

I'm sure this is probably one of the most difficult and unusual cases CPS has ever had to deal with. With the enormity of the task, I would hope they are doing everything they can to get things resolved as quickly as possible.

Can we really look at this and say this is part of their normal, every day, standard operating procedure? And that we should base our fears from it?

Do you think they will be going after the Amish community next? What about the muslim compounds? Does this set a precedence?

I think this intervention was NECESSARY. And the only precedence it should be setting is that if you break the law on our soil, you will not be left alone.

[The Mrs]

Originally Posted by Newman

Well, that certainly should have come to light at a probable cause/preliminary hearing. But so far I haven't heard of anything conclusive other than an alleged 16 year old girl's phone call (who can't be found) and lots of speculation. What do they have on any individual family?

From the speculation I've heard, they have several pregnant minors.

I've also heard they have 6 women who want to escape that community.

Those two groups may be the same.

[Hoovie]

Yes it does set a precedent.

[Margies3]

Originally Posted by cneasttx

Margie, think about it, they cannot do it that fast. Too many kids, they have to go case by case. Some parents with more than one child may lose all of their kids. But they still have to prove abuse.

They're making it sound like they're going to get this done very quickly. I think the thing that concerns me MOST is the idea of them taking PERMANENT custody the way they're talking like doing. To remove the children until they can get things sorted out is one thing. And then offer parenting classes, strict visitation schedules, and any other number of things that are normally offered to other parents whose children are removed from their homes would be another. But to say, "ok, they're out. Now we're taking them permanently" WHEW!!! How do they even know but that maybe some of these mothers really would want to leave but are afraid to right now?

Originally Posted by Newman

Ummm....one would hope so.

However, if its similar to my state; Texas would have had to have shown that there was probable cause of neglect or abuse to remove the children from their parents' custody in the first place.

It's beyond my comprehension that they were able to individually find probable cause against each mother in the sect.

Consequently, I am not so certain that Texas can deliver fair trials; especially considering the trauma and publicity that already surround this case.

The normal practice (that I am familiar with) is to ask kids questions first (without mom and dad there). Then separate them from their parents if the answers given or facts known warrant it. But taking custody of the child before asking questions shocks me.

Give me a week and I think I could ask enough questions of young children already traumatized by their new environment and forcefully and unexpectedly separated from their parents to implant serious doubt, confusion and perhaps even false memories in the chldren.

This is scary....

by the way, my oldest son that I told you about - the one who was in foster care for over 3 years while the state worked to get parental rights terminated - he was from your state

[Margies3]

One other thing that I've been concerned about as I've watched all of this unfold: If everyone at Children's Services is tied up on this case, who is taking care of the many other children who are being abused and neglected on a daily basis in that area?

I'm not saying that what happened to these children is ok - NO, NO, NO!!!! But I am concerned that other little ones are being lost in the shuffle.

AND, if other little ones are removed during all of this time - kids who are not part of the LDS thing - will their parents rights be terminated as quickly as those from the LDS? If so, where are they going to find adoptive homes for all of these children? Or even foster homes for them?

This is a logistical nightmare!!

[Newman]

Originally Posted by The Mrs

From the speculation I've heard, they have several pregnant minors.

I've also heard they have 6 women who want to escape that community.

Those two groups may be the same.

Several pregnant minors may implicate 3 mothers for failure to protect. How does it justify separating 416 children from their parents?

Six women want to leave the community. Fine. How does that justify separating 416 minors from their mothers without first educating the mothers about what is expected of them?

How could the state of Texas pay welfare benefits all these years and suddenly complain that there aren't adequate birth records? How could they allow the compound to come into being without winking at polygamy to start with? What warning or "reasonable efforts" went in to addressing the issues without destroying the families?

Polygamy? Hmm... I've been on court cases where there are 8 children and the same number of PUTATIVE dads. And the mother still gets to keep all her kids.

Conversely, I have known of cases with fathers who have kids spread out among multiple women. And guess what? The Court doesn't come in and start taking kids away from all those mothers....

Sexual abuse is a whole other subject; but not something that can be justly imputed to the whole group based on the flimsy "evidence" they had going in with guns blazing. IMO

[Newman]

Originally Posted by Margies3

They're making it sound like they're going to get this done very quickly. I think the thing that concerns me MOST is the idea of them taking PERMANENT custody the way they're talking like doing. To remove the children until they can get things sorted out is one thing. And then offer parenting classes, strict visitation schedules, and any other number of things that are normally offered to other parents whose children are removed from their homes would be another. But to say, "ok, they're out. Now we're taking them permanently"

This is OUTRAGEOUS. I am not convinced that being a group on the outside of society norms hasn't played into this heavily.

Originally Posted by Newman

This is OUTRAGEOUS. I am not convinced that being a group on the outside of society norms hasn't played into this heavily.

Did you hear about the ... what was it... hundreds? Something like that - hundreds of kids taken over by Florida CPS that they 'lost' - can't account for them?

I've heard that the entire CPS industry is just that - an INDUSTRY, with tons of money to be made by people with the right connections.

Outrageous? That doesn't even begin to describe it.

Now, on a side note...

Well, never mind.

[Cindy]

Y'all need to watch Dr. Phil today, Warren Jeff's neice is on the program. She was taken out of the cult when she was 13 by her mother. Just watch it and if you believe her, we don't know anything about the horror's that went on there.
He also has one of the "outcast" boys.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Newman

Several pregnant minors may implicate 3 mothers for failure to protect. How does it justify separating 416 children from their parents?

Six women want to leave the community. Fine. How does that justify separating 416 minors from their mothers without first educating the mothers about what is expected of them?

How could the state of Texas pay welfare benefits all these years and suddenly complain that there aren't adequate birth records? How could they allow the compound to come into being without winking at polygamy to start with? What warning or "reasonable efforts" went in to addressing the issues without destroying the families?

Polygamy? Hmm... I've been on court cases where there are 8 children and the same number of PUTATIVE dads. And the mother still gets to keep all her kids.

Conversely, I have known of cases with fathers who have kids spread out among multiple women. And guess what? The Court doesn't come in and start taking kids away from all those mothers....

Sexual abuse is a whole other subject; but not something that can be justly imputed to the whole group based on the flimsy "evidence" they had going in with guns blazing. IMO

You make some really good points, Newman. I don't really appreciate the severing of parental rights (permanently). For one thing, these women can't be educated enough (and properly) to know how to be any different. Secondly, I think the state is in for TROUBLE if they don't detox these women and children at the same time, and if they don't give those children back to their mothers pretty quickly.

I'm all for protecting the children, though. I just don't know that taking the mothers away is necessary, as long as the state is supervising and protecting them.

I do think it is necessary to remove them from the overall environment until it is sorted out. It's toxic, and I don't know what the mindset is of the adults, but I think potentially, anything could happen if they were backed into a corner. Perhaps the state has thought of this and feels like the children can't be returned at all until the men who are guilty are removed?

Just throwing this out there, but what if they returned everyone to the compound, and they decided that their children would all be better off going to heaven at a young age than their children being in the "wicked" and worldly care of non-Christians? You know very well some of them can and will reason in that way.