Whoa! Polygamist solution is frightening...

[revrandy]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

In many so called "christian communities" the leaders live like kings...I have read a lot of things about a community called twelve tribes because I once visited them and stayed a few days with them in far south Brazil...
I saw things that ...well...did not seem just right...but I was there only as a visitor...

Come to America... Vacations...Conferences (Called Work )...Cars...Lands...and Money....Spend most of the day online on Forums ...and study the Word....and collect a Paycheck..Whether they are there or not...
Pretty nice... for the Full Timers....

There are a few who actually work...40 to 50 hours a week... maybe more than I have met...

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I’m just finding it an interesting cultural comparison. I’m looking at several things:

-First, the cultural norms regarding the age to marry for the majority of human history.

-Second, modern laws regarding the age to marry.

-Thirdly, human behaviors.

I don’t think human beings have changed at all since we were created. Culture and society has changed, but basic human behaviors haven’t. We in modern day America are having an overwhelming problem with young people and their behaviors. Modern society expects kids to abstain until they are at least out of high school and married, around 20 years old or so. Most would like to see their children abstain until after college (average age of 25 or 26?). Then date, have an engagement, and marry. That puts modern cultural expectations at around the mid to late 20’s. In the ancient world most of our young people would have married in their mid teens (of course they would also be working in a family trade to support themselves also). I’m just looking at our modern sociological model and wondering if maybe, due to the greater need of education etc, our modern social structure and our natural human developmental stages clash?

I guess this isn’t entirely related to the polygamy story, but it was just a thought I had.

But something about this story that’s really strange to me, according to what I heard on the news, is that the government did all this based on an anonymous telephone call that may have made a bogus claim. The reporter asked one of the women from the ranch he was interviewing if the call could have come from an angry neighbor. She didn’t know.

I have thought about this angle on many of these discussions, in particular as it applies to birth control and the closely related idea that some have that God "requires" large families.
Juliet (of Romeo and Juliet) was often said to be only 13 or 14. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was also thought to be in her early teens.
We see a common theme where 13, 14, and 15 were often ages to get married and even have babies throughout history. What changed? For one thing, progress. We have nowhere near the infant mortality now that humankind used to have to deal with just 100 years ago and earlier. Modern medicine (except for some of those in the church who shun it), schooling, the ability to travel from immediate family, and extended lives all play a part.

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Please explain how is this a crime while other woman collect welfare on a grand scale and many have babies specificly for that reason. Are you saying they should not be entitled?

Maybe because the "men" don't have jobs to provide for their children? I dunno Stephen, I have no problem with taking care of children if neccessary. While our current president was governor of Texas he pushed and the state legislated reforms on our welfare system. They offer support for women that are actively seeking employment and/or employed. You can no longer just keep having kids and drawing welfare without showing signs of empolyment any longer. I am sure there are still those that find a way around the system as well, and not just within this community. I don't know what the men in this situation are doing. If they work outside the compound and provide for their families or not.

[ChristopherHall]

From what I understand the husbands were only legally married to one wife. The additional wives were “spiritual wives”. So technically these women were not legally married but had children. Since they don’t work and have kids they are eligible for welfare. I imagine that the husband takes the money from them but I don’t know for sure. It’s really crazy.

You said you would do away with welfare and SSI. If we did do away with welfare, what would we do about single parent house holds where a mother without an education or work experience is left to care for children? If we did away with welfare most single mothers would have to work two jobs to just make ends meet. That means they would not be home to parent their children. Also the income of the jobs inexperienced women without an education can get wouldn’t pay enough for them to secure an adequate living standard in a safe location for children. So if we do terminate all welfare, should the state step in and take the children to see to it that these children do not live in squalor? And if we terminate SSI what do we do with all those suffering from mental or physical disabilities that need it? Should the government open up sanitariums and invalid homes to house these individuals like we did in days past?

I’m just curious. I hear “We should do away with this...” and “We should do away with that…” But what do we do about the human fallout after we do? Such a position should consider how to completely follow through on the issue. Often after close examination some of our systems, while not perfect, are necessary evils compared to the alternative.

P.S.
IM me if you don’t feel like talking about this here seeing it’s somewhat off topic. I’m just interested in your thoughts.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by revrandy

Come to America... Vacations...Conferences (Called Work )...Cars...Lands...and Money....Spend most of the day online on Forums ...and study the Word....and collect a Paycheck..Whether they are there or not...
Pretty nice... for the Full Timers....

There are a few who actually work...40 to 50 hours a week... maybe more than I have met...

LOL

She'll also discover that the more you make...the less real work it seems you do. But don't get too comfortable. While you may only make 4 decisions a day...those decisions are often biggies.

[Hoovie]

Are there more or less living in poverty since the inception of our welfare state?

Of course some cannot help themselves... and Churches and nonprofits would be free to rise to the occaision.

For many it would also be a reason to nurture those family ties. Needing each other is a wonderful thing and is often a disguised blessing.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I have thought about this angle on many of these discussions, in particular as it applies to birth control and the closely related idea that some have that God "requires" large families.
Juliet (of Romeo and Juliet) was often said to be only 13 or 14. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was also thought to be in her early teens.
We see a common theme where 13, 14, and 15 were often ages to get married and even have babies throughout history. What changed? For one thing, progress. We have nowhere near the infant mortality now that humankind used to have to deal with just 100 years ago and earlier. Modern medicine (except for some of those in the church who shun it), schooling, the ability to travel from immediate family, and extended lives all play a part.

Yep. Thanks for seeing where a brain like mine is coming from. It’s interesting on a social and cultural level. That’s why I can’t necessarily say that marrying that young is “immoral” (as long as it was agreed upon by parents) simply based on age. In my mind what makes marrying so young “immoral” is the inability for the would-be young family to sustain themselves and any resulting children economically. In ancient cultures, and even some cultures today, a couple who marries that young continues to live with family and learns their family’s trade. Eventually they inherit the family land, farm, shop, or mill. In America they would typically be pushed “out of the nest” by parents. Since they would have no education, skills, or knowledge, they would be hopelessly unable to sustain themselves as a family.

[ChristopherHall]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Are there more or less living in poverty since the inception of our welfare state?

More as far as numbers. However, if we factor in population growth we realize that while more people are on welfare…there are more people overall. The actual percentage of those on welfare in relation to population growth shows that we’ve made modest improvements in the area of poverty. But as job markets thin and wages increasingly fail to match the cost of living we see a growing number of people about to fall into poverty. It’s interesting.

Of course some cannot help themselves... and Churches and nonprofits would be free to rise to the occaision.

Oh, to live in a perfect world. Most churches struggle to pay bills as it is so that’s out of the question. The largest non-profits are largely dependent upon grants from the Federal government. For example Ohio food banks suffered greatly in 2002 when Federal funding was cut to facilitate tax cuts. A local food bank explained that due to budget cuts they would be unable to facilitate food relief for over 1,000 individuals they would had been able to assist prior to the cuts.

For many it would also be a reason to nurture those family ties. Needing each other is a wonderful thing and is often a disguised blessing.

I agree with you here. But there are those who come from dysfunctional families who would have nowhere to turn.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Absolutely not defending. IMHO we should consider doing away with all welfare and SSI.

But we need to be doing a clean sweep of blocks in the inner cities if it's illegal, because that's exactly what is happening there.

Thankful for States like mine that require a woman to seek employment or go to school while on welfare. They monitor it and you have to show proof of your job hunt.. interviews or applications for employment. Failure to comply results in taken off the program. You also have a lifetime benefit of 2 years to draw welfare in our state.

I spent about 3 months on our state welfare system.. for three kids, the cash benefit was $346 a month and food stamps and of course Medicaid. That is not enough to live on, and I can't understand for the life of me how people would want to live that way.

The state was paid back with the first tax refund my ex husband tried to claim on a federal return. Which is the way it should be.

[ForeverBlessed]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Please explain how is this a crime while other woman collect welfare on a grand scale and many have babies specificly for that reason. Are you saying they should not be entitled?

Originally Posted by revrandy

Not defending either...both are equally offensive...but in the case of this group...men get the welfare checks for the wives... a man with 9 or 10 wives with children might make a good living...

Steve are defending this??

It is a crime, it is welfare fraud.... you are not supposed to be drawing a cash benefit for welfare if a father/male is in the household who is able to work.

In this case, the women would have been lying to welfare caseworkers...giving false information on the application. Also, I would fault the caseworkers for not realizing the address or looking into the situation where so many women were drawing benefits yet there were men there.

I personally haven't been on any type of assistance for over 4 years now...however... our State is strict with this stuff. I was drawing food stamps only as I worked full time but still had difficulty making ends meet back in 03. I had a caseworker actually visit my home to do a house/situation assessment. I am not sure how often these are made, but it was an interesting interview. She came from the State and ended up coming to my work... I didn't have anything to hide and of course I was legit and everything went smoothly.... that was food stamps only.. so I can't imagine if I had been drawing a cash benefit.

It is states that need to reform their welfare program...