UPCI's Randy Hollis Throws Down the Gauntlet: The Emancipation of Isaac

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pastorj

There are two kinds of legalists, I think.

There are those who force everyone to meet with their convictions and set that as the bottom line for salvation, else to hell you're gonna go! My way or the highway!! This legalist raises the bar until it becomes impossible to be saved. Those on this extreme are usually those who are too lazy to study and therefore just arbitrarily set lines that have NO BIBLICAL basis. One disclaimer though... there are standards of holiness for which there is no 'black & white' scripture, they are simply done out of faith, love for God and obedience to principles (a favorite term here on AFF, I find).

Then there are those who try to find out how much they can do and still be saved (i.e. - women cutting their hair, wearing pants, rings, sleeve length, tv, internet, social drinking, etc.) and try to drag others down to that level. This legalist has lowered the bar so far that it is impossible to be saved. I often find it is those who are 'bitter' with men, and form an opinion that justifies them in their 'newfound liberty' rather than finding a church that has a good spirit, that become those on the second extreme.

Both are legalists because 'they' are setting the baseline for salvation. BOTH are in danger of being lost because they are trying to become a God to themselves by making their line THE LINE!

The good news is that there are a lot of churches and pastors who fall into the middle ground. (Yes, there are!) And there will be much required at judgment for those on either end of this scale.

A final word here... ALL SCRIPTURE is RELEVANT (yes, even OT Scripture)! So if we're going to preach only what's in the Bible, let's preach everything that's in the Bible!
A case in point... If it ever was an abomination to God, since he doesn't change, wouldn't that mean it still was an abomination? Unless, of course, you believe He changes...

God Bless

There you have it we're all legalists .... except for the moderates who keep legalist standands ... whooo. ....

I've heard this argument before PJ ... it is weakened because you have failed to accurately define what a legalist is and how folks on both extremes meet this definition.

But that's me just being a legalist.

Methinks some hate to be called legalists ... because the shoe fits.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pastorj

A final word here... ALL SCRIPTURE is RELEVANT (yes, even OT Scripture)! So if we're going to preach only what's in the Bible, let's preach everything that's in the Bible!
A case in point... If it ever was an abomination to God, since he doesn't change, wouldn't that mean it still was an abomination? Unless, of course, you believe He changes...

God Bless

Did God change His view on shell fish??? MY BIBLE SAYS:

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

[Coonskinner]

Sigh.

Daniel, you know very well there is a difference between the Lord saying something would be "an abomination unto you," as opposed to things He said were an abomination to Him, as is the case in Deuteronomy 22:5.

[pastorj]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Did God change His view on shell fish??? MY BIBLE SAYS:

Leviticus 11:9-12 says:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

IMO, that is an easy one to answer.
Shellfish were not an abomination to God... they were to be an abomination TO MEN. Other things are clearly defined as an abomination TO GOD.

MY BIBLE SAYS:
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

To put it in my words, beans are an abomination to me, but they surely aren't to God... I don't like shellfish either...
But God says if you do certain things, they are an abomination to HIM... I find that rather clear and not open for 'renovation'...

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pastorj

There are two kinds of legalists, I think.

There are those who force everyone to meet with their convictions and set that as the bottom line for salvation, else to hell you're gonna go! My way or the highway!! This legalist raises the bar until it becomes impossible to be saved. Those on this extreme are usually those who are too lazy to study and therefore just arbitrarily set lines that have NO BIBLICAL basis. One disclaimer though... there are standards of holiness for which there is no 'black & white' scripture, they are simply done out of faith, love for God and obedience to principles (a favorite term here on AFF, I find).

Then there are those who try to find out how much they can do and still be saved (i.e. - women cutting their hair, wearing pants, rings, sleeve length, tv, internet, social drinking, etc.) and try to drag others down to that level. This legalist has lowered the bar so far that it is impossible to be saved. I often find it is those who are 'bitter' with men, and form an opinion that justifies them in their 'newfound liberty' rather than finding a church that has a good spirit, that become those on the second extreme.

Both are legalists because 'they' are setting the baseline for salvation. BOTH are in danger of being lost because they are trying to become a God to themselves by making their line THE LINE!

The good news is that there are a lot of churches and pastors who fall into the middle ground. (Yes, there are!) And there will be much required at judgment for those on either end of this scale.

A final word here... ALL SCRIPTURE is RELEVANT (yes, even OT Scripture)! So if we're going to preach only what's in the Bible, let's preach everything that's in the Bible!
A case in point... If it ever was an abomination to God, since he doesn't change, wouldn't that mean it still was an abomination? Unless, of course, you believe He changes...

God Bless

Originally Posted by pastorj

IMO, that is an easy one to answer.
Shellfish were not an abomination to God... they were to be an abomination TO MEN. Other things are clearly defined as an abomination TO GOD.

MY BIBLE SAYS:
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

To put it in my words, beans are an abomination to me, but they surely aren't to God... I don't like shellfish either...
But God says if you do certain things, they are an abomination to HIM... I find that rather clear and not open for 'renovation'...

Once again .... where's that scripture that states a pair of pants is solely man's clothing??? .... oh ... right next to the one that states a tunic is male clothing, as well as tube socks.

Your LEGALIST religion is based on the poor exegesis of a scripture dealing w/ ceremonial law during wartime and jaded by cultural misgivings you've mistakenly labeled as God's Holiness.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by pastorj

IMO, that is an easy one to answer.
Shellfish were not an abomination to God... they were to be an abomination TO MEN. Other things are clearly defined as an abomination TO GOD.

MY BIBLE SAYS:
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.

To put it in my words, beans are an abomination to me, but they surely aren't to God... I don't like shellfish either...
But God says if you do certain things, they are an abomination to HIM... I find that rather clear and not open for 'renovation'...

Let me help you w/ your exegesis .... it appears this list of unclean foods was important to God to the point that he concluded his long list to the Levites by reminding them:

43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy. 46 " 'These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves in the water and every creature that moves about on the ground. 47 You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.' "



Furthermore .... all sin is an abomination to God ... there are no levels in SEVERITY ... this technique in presenting Deut 22:5 is a scare tactic as to present it as somehow the ultimate offense.

Would you like to delineate what God calls an abomination to Him? Because I see a quite a list in scripture.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

But at the end of the day, we can be everybody's buddy, but if they aren't baptized in jesus Name and filled with the Holy Ghost, they're dead in trespasses and sins, and bound for the Lake of Fire.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Let me help you w/ your exegesis .... it appears this list of unclean foods was important to God to the point that he concluded his long list to the Levites by reminding them:

43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy. 46 " 'These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves in the water and every creature that moves about on the ground. 47 You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.' "



Furthermore .... all sin is an abomination to God ... there are no levels in SEVERITY ... this technique in presenting Deut 22:5 is a scare tactic as to present as somehow the ultimate offense.

Would you like to delineate what God calls an abomination to Him? Because I see a quite a list in scripture.

Let's start with...gossip, backbiting, variance, strife, envy, bitterness, hatred, lying (including living a lie) ie hypocrisy) discord among the brethren, false witness against your neighbor...and on and on..funny thing is I don't see paints or makeup listed, not even cut hair. If clothes were so important, why is it Jesus never addressed it? Oh he left that up to you, I'm sorry I forgot!

[pastorj]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Let's start with...gossip, backbiting, variance, strife, envy, bitterness, hatred, lying (including living a lie) ie hypocrisy) discord among the brethren, false witness against your neighbor...and on and on..funny thing is I don't see paints or makeup listed, not even cut hair. If clothes were so important, why is it Jesus never addressed it? Oh he left that up to you, I'm sorry I forgot!

This is a funny place to hang out... ... and that is a dangerous argument! "I don't see it listed... " Now there's a quote worthy of the tag LEGALIST!

Going down that road will sure help ease our concerns about doing anything we want to do! There are a LOT OF THINGS that Jesus never addressed that are still WRONG. And please don't say, "Like what?"... puhleeze...

I am not justifying that list you mentioned... as a matter of fact, my congregation will tell you that I preach this stuff very often. However, I am not willing to pretend that nothing matters but loving Jesus... I read of some that tried that on Jesus and His response was (in paraphrase)... You did what? Cast out devils? Miracles? That's funny... Oooopps! Sorry... I never knew you!

[pastorj]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Once again .... where's that scripture that states a pair of pants is solely man's clothing??? .... oh ... right next to the one that states a tunic is male clothing, as well as tube socks.

Your LEGALIST religion is based on the poor exegesis of a scripture dealing w/ ceremonial law during wartime and jaded by cultural misgivings you've mistakenly labeled as God's Holiness.

'round and 'round the cobblers bench the monkey chased the weasel...

I think I'm just gonna' throw in the towel... Every good legalist knows when to quit harping on his jaded views of cultural misgivings... and just give up... I'll have to tell the church tomorrow that my exegesis has been incredibly faulty... WE'RE GONNA BE FREE!!! And just in time for Christmas!








j/k

God Bless