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  #181  
Old 12-04-2007, 12:39 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
I'm confused.
I know.
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  #182  
Old 12-04-2007, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
My 11,000 plus posts are not exaggerated.



I love yah Dan!


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  #183  
Old 12-04-2007, 12:49 PM
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Mrs. LPW Mrs. LPW is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Paul defended himself.

1 Corinthians 9:1-6 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord. Mine answer to them that do examine me is this, Have we not power to eat and to drink? Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?


2 Corinthians 12:11-13 I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
Very good.
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  #184  
Old 12-04-2007, 12:50 PM
Nahum Nahum is offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
I know.
So you are calling him my partner in lying?
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  #185  
Old 12-04-2007, 01:08 PM
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CC1 CC1 is offline
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Originally Posted by pelathais View Post
I would say that despite the direction this thread took on the issue, DB's essential view on men with facial hair has remained unchanged since at least 1989. He's not one to flip flop. He's very careful about that. That's why you seldom see him making grand sweeping generalizations either. He makes his points and appears to be honest enough with himself to add plenty of the "I just dont know" candor to his writings.

"The Bible speaks of beards favorably or neutrally, and
they are a natural part of the male appearance. They are
not inherently evil but are wrong only if associated with
a sinful lifestyle, rebellion, or pride. During the hippie era
they generally did have worldly connotations of this kind,
but as culture removes those associations, we need not
object to them."
Essentials of Holiness, 1989

"Finally, we can use the example of beards and mustaches.
In the 1960’s, men used facial hair to symbolize
rebellion against authority and the acceptance of an
immoral lifestyle. Frequently, the same men wore long
hair, which violates biblical teaching. In some segments
of society and in many conservative churches, beards and
mustaches still carry these negative connotations. If they
create an appearance of evil or a stumbling block in a
society, Christians should not wear them.

We must agree, however, that the Bible does not condemn
them as inherently evil. Many godly men of Bible
days wore beards (I Samuel 21:13; Psalm 133:2; Ezekiel
5:1). One prophecy indicates that Jesus probably had a
beard (Isaiah 50:6). In American society of the 19th century,
beards had no ungodly associations. Many Pentecostal
pioneers of the early 20th century had beards. In
many foreign cultures and among many minority groups,
beards and mustaches have never had and do not now
have negative associations. Perhaps our society as a
whole will revert to the use of facial hair. In light of these
facts, we cannot legalistically condemn facial hair itself as
sinful. We can warn of the attitudes often associated with
it in our culture, but we must be flexible enough to accept
it in times, places, and cultures where these problems do
not exist."
PRACTICAL HOLINESS A SECOND LOOK, unknown

From pelathais' growing database of Apostolic writings.
I remember finding that section of DB's book about facial hair on men every interesting. In every other instance he seems to have swallowed the kool aid and touts the historical legacy of pretzel logic in propping up the OP hobby horses of standards. However in this case even he could not bring himself to try and jusify the unjustifiable.

I think DB is a very smart man who has consciously chosen to oly use his intellect within the limits of the historical perspective of his religous sect.

This happens all of the time in every religion. Everybody from the Moonies, the Mormons, and the Roman Catholic church have had brilliant scholars who choose to only apply their intellect and logic within the framework of their sects established norms.
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  #186  
Old 12-04-2007, 01:14 PM
josh josh is offline
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Really???? What letter was copied and sent to DB by the notorious CS??




Really ....??? The NOTORIOUS CASTON SMITH COPIED A LETTER THAT DB AUTHORED AND SENT IT BACK TO HIM???

SURELY ... you mean he copied the vile posts about DB posted by fellow ministers on CAF ... attacks that were not censored or checked for accuracy. Attacks that were only retracted when it hit the fan?
Dan, there were no "vile" posts.

We have only 3 active moderators on CAF and all three are very busy pastors. I missed the whole thread. My first indication was Bro Riggen's posting of DB's reply.

For the record, DB had ample kudos being handed out on the same thread. And...I don't remember any attacks of character. There were some discussions of things they read or saw that DB felt should have an explanation available to explain context.

Anyway...we try just as hard to prevent character attacks as AFF and other forums do. Our success record is as good or better than most I've seen.
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  #187  
Old 12-04-2007, 01:20 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
So you are calling him my partner in lying?
Hyperbole is not lying .... it is a figurative device used to make a point through exaggeration.
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  #188  
Old 12-04-2007, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by CC1 View Post
I remember finding that section of DB's book about facial hair on men every interesting. In every other instance he seems to have swallowed the kool aid and touts the historical legacy of pretzel logic in propping up the OP hobby horses of standards. However in this case even he could not bring himself to try and jusify the unjustifiable.

I think DB is a very smart man who has consciously chosen to oly use his intellect within the limits of the historical perspective of his religous sect.

This happens all of the time in every religion. Everybody from the Moonies, the Mormons, and the Roman Catholic church have had brilliant scholars who choose to only apply their intellect and logic within the framework of their sects established norms.
IOTD.
INSIGHT OF THE DAY
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  #189  
Old 12-04-2007, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by josh View Post
Dan, there were no "vile" posts.

We have only 3 active moderators on CAF and all three are very busy pastors. I missed the whole thread. My first indication was Bro Riggen's posting of DB's reply.

For the record, DB had ample kudos being handed out on the same thread. And...I don't remember any attacks of character. There were some discussions of things they read or saw that DB felt should have an explanation available to explain context.

Anyway...we try just as hard to prevent character attacks as AFF and other forums do. Our success record is as good or better than most I've seen.
Thank you for your perspective.

Why would DB have to be make himself avalaible to explain context especially when the issues seem petty?
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  #190  
Old 12-04-2007, 02:34 PM
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BrotherEastman BrotherEastman is offline
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Originally Posted by SecretWarrior View Post
COMMENTS ABOUT THE CONSERVATIVE APOSTOLIC FORUM

By David K. Bernard

The discussion about me on the Conservative Apostolic Forum was surprising. I didn’t think an individual would merit such treatment, especially not me. Here are my thoughts and response.

General Observations
1. I don’t mind people disagreeing with my positions and offering a reasoned response, criticism, or correction, but I was shocked to read numerous accusations against me, my family, and my church based on innuendos, hearsay, and outright false information. No one checked with me about the accuracy of these statements, although some know me personally. If I have an uncorrected fault, why don’t they approach me in a spirit of love instead of accusing me to the brethren? How can they make these comments or provide a forum for these comments in light of the many scriptural prohibitions? (See, for example, Leviticus 19:16; Proverbs 11:13; 18:8: 26:20-22; I Timothy 5:19; James 1:19-20.) Wouldn’t tale bearing be worse than some of the other errors they are alleging?
2. Some presume to judge my heart, saying that I am motivated by politics, desire for numbers, or desire to please my children. How do they know my heart? Where is the evidence of wrong motives? Have they no regard for Jesus’ admonition in Matthew 7:1-2, which surely applies when someone publicly makes personal judgments about someone else’s heart? Shouldn’t someone beside me tell them that such comments are inappropriate?
3. There is very little engagement with my ideas, but instead there are attacks on my character and reputation. This is the logical fallacy known as the argumentum ad hominem, which means “argument against the person.” In other words, even if every single accusation they make against me is true, it doesn’t address the validity of the ideas that I have presented.
4. Where is the concern for me, my family, and my church? They may justify their statements by saying this is a closed forum, but isn’t that what talebearers do when they tell things “in confidence”?
5. Contrary to allegations, my basic positions on holiness have remained the same. You can see this for yourself if you will read In Search of Holiness (1981, 2nd edition 2006) and Practical Holiness (1985); compare them with our church’s “Guidelines for Leadership and Public Ministry” in my book Growing a Church (2001); and then visit our church in Austin today. You will see that the growth of my family, the growth of our church, or my being elected as district superintendent has not changed my teachings. Moreover, the books are clear; you can easily understand my position on holiness from them.
6. Does this type of discussion demonstrate what it means to be “conservative Apostolic”? (By the way, I have received much criticism over the years for my “conservative Apostolic” views.) We should remember that holiness involves attitudes and communications as well as dress and entertainment. That is why my book In Search of Holiness has two chapters entitled “Christian Attitudes” and “The Tongue.” I have removed people from local church involvement because of violations of these holiness principles. Perhaps my views on these matters are too conservative for the Forum!

Specific Responses
Below are brief responses to the main accusations. I can provide a more detailed response if desired.
1. Accusation: He believes the UPCI is the body of Christ. That is a misrepresentation of my position. In Search of Holiness, 207, clearly states that no organization is equivalent to the body of Christ. However, I do believe that the UPCI is part of the body of Christ. Therefore, it must be treated with respect as a part of the body. I don’t want to cause harm or act unethically toward any portion of the body of Christ. Nor do I believe that organizational officials are someone’s pastor merely by virtue of an election. However, I do think that they are leaders who should be treated with respect.
As ministers, we are still accountable to follow scriptural principles of authority, accountability, unity, ethics, and not sowing discord. I do not say that a person cannot leave the UPCI. I say that a person should not do so without careful consideration of these principles and should not do so in an unethical way. A good test is this: Under what conditions would it be proper for a saint in your local assembly to disagree with a decision of the leadership, to express their disagreement, to leave in good standing, and to solicit other members to leave? Think about the scriptural admonitions and principles involved in answering this question. Then apply the same principles to preachers, because, believe it or not, preachers are supposed to be saints also. For further discussion, see In Search of Holiness, 207-30.
2. Accusation: He is a “company man.” He is playing “politics.” I will cite a few examples to the contrary. My intent is not to exalt self but just to give facts. I can provide other examples also.
a. In 1981, I turned down career options as one of the top graduates at one of the top law schools in the country. Some classmates and successors have attained high social, judicial, and political positions. I don’t consider my choice to be a sacrifice, because it is a privilege to preach the gospel. But it would be foolish to compromise my ministry for position, fame, or money after rejecting a greater opportunity.
b. When my mother and I wrote In Search of Holiness in 1981, the Pentecostal Publishing House refused to publish it because it was deemed too controversial, so we self-published it. Later, we turned it over to PPH to ensure wider distribution, even though it meant that PPH received most of the income.
c. From 1981 to 1986, I was part of a new administration that turned around a Bible college which had departed from the Apostolic doctrine and lifestyle. I was the primary doctrine teacher.
d. When I became associate editor for the UPCI in 1981, all full-time executives attended a church that began heading in a direction contrary to “conservative Apostolic.” Most executives were out of town most weekends, so the situation did not immediately press them. Some people advised me to attend church with everyone else. Nevertheless, in that situation I was the first full-time executive to choose another church. (Not a very smart “political move” for the new kid!)
e. In 1992, I resigned my full-time position at headquarters to start a home missions church, even though people said I would be in line for Editor in Chief. (Again, not a very good “political move.”)
f. In 2001, I joined the committee to apply for the South Texas District, even though the odds were against the application and I experienced extreme criticism. My “political career” as a district board member was certainly doomed if the application were denied. But I decided it was the best plan for growth, and if the application was turned down, it would be God’s way of refocusing my ministry.
3. Accusation: A young minister visited our church and was disappointed to see a lot of worldly people. We are a growing church, so in every service we have first-time visitors, uncommitted people, and new converts. We typically have about 100 new converts in a year. In the past year we have added 90 new families. On any Sunday we can easily have 50 or more visitors. Frankly, I would be disappointed if I did not see a lot of worldly people in a Sunday service. The minister did not see worship leaders, choir members, ushers, hostesses, or Sunday school teachers who were violating our guidelines for outward appearance. That is the more accurate test for a revival church.
4. Accusation: Owning a TV is not an issue in his church. Simply false. Our published guidelines take a position against TV. We do allow monitors for computer, video, and DVD under certain guidelines.
5. Accusation: His teenage son was shown in a family picture having “long” hair. It is a shame to drag my son into this discussion. I recommend that men’s hair be off the collar, eyebrows, and ears, basically following the hairline. As the picture shows, my son’s hair was not over his collar or eyebrows, but it was curling above his ears—technically in compliance, but longer than I wanted. Nevertheless, he is my son, I love him unconditionally, and I won’t eliminate him from a family picture on this basis, even if some criticize. (I must not be a very good “politician.”) We faced a strong spiritual attack on our family at that time, and I had to choose my battles wisely. Thankfully, the Lord gave us victory. All three of my children are walking in holiness, active in ministry, and personally winning souls.
6. Accusation: His youth band is worldly. This a mischaracterization and misjudgment of these people, their spirit, and their music. For a discussion of music, see In Search of Holiness, 252-58.
7. Accusation: Men in his church have facial hair. For district functions, our platform guidelines prohibit facial hair on men, because of perceptions of the possible symbolism. Since it is a cultural rather than a scriptural issue, in the local church I handle this matter according to Romans 14. One man on our leadership team has a mustache. (The other picture referenced is out of date.) For further discussion, see Practical Holiness, 91-107, especially 105-6. There is room for legitimate differences of opinion on this matter, but not ridicule or condemnation.
Good for him, btw I spoke with DB personally on a couple of different occasions. He is a humble and fair man imo.
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