What is a Happening Church to you? What is a Dead church?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.....this is water baptism

AND have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ......this is Spirit baptism. :sshhh

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.....this is water baptism

AND have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ......this is Spirit baptism. :sshhh

Yes indeed baptized into one Spirit.. taking on the name and person of Christ ... in our regeneration. :sshhh

It's a dirty little secret but Trinnies are part of the Body because they are Spirit-filled with Christ and most of their churches have the same Spirit the quickens you and I. :sshhh

[SDG]

btw, Mizpeh... the interpretation we give to the verse in Corinthians is spiritual ... and it reads that way ... it HOLDS NO WATER ...

Read the entire chapter 12 ... it deals w/ the SPIRIT and the Body... rightly divide this Word ... not based on inferential reasoning derived from your pre-conceived soteriological view and prejudice towards those you seek to exclude....but in context.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Maturity will reached when there is an understanding of what means to be people of His name ... as long as your definition excludes people who are filled the same Spirit that indwells you ... your truth ... will be just elementary understanding of what the name and person of Jesus entails and who is HIS BODY.

Please examine post 36 ... Trinnies and OP's both have called upon the name of the Lord. ... in the person of Jesus Christ our Savior.

I neither have the heart, or the desire to debate this with you. You first state that you believe water baptism in Jesus name to be the correct method of baptism, and then you come out with a post like this. NO one will mature in their experience with God without going through water baptism in Jesus name. It is an elementary teaching of the response to the gospel.

Now unless you do not believe the Holy Ghost leads folks forward in a progressive manner from birth to maturity, it is impossible to get to maturity without first coming up against the truth of water baptism in Jesus name.

You say you believe in water baptism in Jesus name, but your posts seem to indicate differently. And then you wonder why you get that same question over and over, "do you really believe it?".

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

A happening church are PEOPLE OF HIS NAME. They do not possess His name simply because the proper name of Jesus was invoked by a baptizer over a believer but because the possess the entire character of the person that the name describes ...

In ancient times the term name revealed the full character of the person.

One writer tell us:

The name given is made to refer to position or official relationship, so that the position is meant when the word "name" is used. Even in this sense "a good name is rather to be chosen than great riches." The success of the Lord's work is to Him "for a name" -- an honor. (Isa. 55:13) To the obedient the Lord promises "an everlasting name." (Isa. 56:5) "but the name of the wicked shall rot." (Prov. 10:7) To receive a prophet in the name of a prophet certainly refers to his official character.

"Thou shalt call his name Jesus because He shall save His people from their sins." Jesus means Savior, and we are carried forward from the mere word to the exalted official position, on account of which he can "save to the utmost all who come unto God by him." His position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having "all power in heaven and earth." Hence, it is said, "Let ALL the angels of GOd worship him"; [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has " by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they."

Michael or Gabriel are perhaps grander names than Jesus, though Jesus is grand in its very simplicity, but the official character of the Son of God as Savior and King is the inheritance from his Father, which is far superior to theirs, for it pleased the Father that in him all fullness should dwell. He has given him a name which is above every name, that at the NAME of Jesus every knee should bow both in heaven and earth. And there is "none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." With this view before our minds that the name refers to his official position, the importance of taking from among the Gentiles a "people for his name" will be appreciated. As the wife takes the name of her husband, so the church takes the name of her Head. The two made one is the fact of importance. Not one in name merely, but in fact, as represented by the name -- one in spirit, position, aim and work.

The difference between the terms Jesu-it and Christian may illustrate a point. The first relates to the letter, as Jesus, is a proper name; the second relates more nearly to the spirit, as Christ means Anointed and refers to his official position.

We are not here pleading for a name, but what appears to be an important idea. There is doubtless as much danger in using the name Christian as the name of a sect, as in using other names. The one body knows no divisions. All who have the spirit of Christ are one whether they fully realize it or not; one in spirit now and when glorified -- married -- one in every possible sense, even as the Father and Son are one. (John 17:22, 23).

To be baptized into the name of Jesus (or Father, Son, and Holy Spirit), as in him all fullness of the Godhead dwells, means far more than a baptismal formula. It is by the apostle expressed as being baptized by one spirit into one body (1 Cor. 12:13). There are letter and spirit in the subject of baptism as in almost every other part of God's plan. We should not ignore or belittle either. The letter represents the spirit, as a symbol or "likeness of his death", and "resurrection" (Rom. 6:5).

Those who can appreciate the Spirit need not and are not most likely to ignore the letter, but it seems important that we should guard against mere formalism. In spirit, to be baptized into Christ involves a death to sin, a rising into a new life of obedience, and a consequent formation of a character; -- having "your fruit unto holiness and the end everlasting life" (Rom. 6:22) "As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). "Into one body!" "Ye are members of Christ," as in the figure used, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (Eph. 5:30). Do not confound the figure with the reality, do not imagine we will lose our individuality. "

Water baptism is but a figure of Christ's death and resurrection of the inward work he has done when we placed our faith in Him and repented of our sins.

"The body of Christ is a body corporate, each individual acting in harmony with each other and under the direction of Christ for the manifestation of God's love in the salvation of men.

The human body is used to represent the church, but in this as in all other figures the reality is but dimly fore-shadowed. As Jesus is the Anointed, so are we, and for the same purpose. He is both king and priest, so we are to be kings and priests -- kings to rule and priests to bless.

To be baptized into his name is to become sharers in his spirit, his character, his official positon and his work. The power given to him will be manifested through his saints. He is our Savior, but the body corporate will save the world."


The apostles, namely Peter and Paul understood and preached this message when the echoed the words of the prophet Joel that those who called upon the name of the Lord will be saved ... because they understood that the name of the Lords is the Person of Jesus Christ ... He does the saving when as believer we turn to God and draw nigh unto HIM.

If a trinitarian or OP is Spirit filled they are people of His name and part of the body.


http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/jname.html

I would say that Paul would argue with you over what name is correct for being water baptized. He stressed the name used as being important.

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

I find it sad that you would have such contention over using Jesus' name for baptism.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I neither have the heart, or the desire to debate this with you. You first state that you believe water baptism in Jesus name to be the correct method of baptism, and then you come out with a post like this. NO one will mature in their experience with God without going through water baptism in Jesus name. It is an elementary teaching of the response to the gospel.

Now unless you do not believe the Holy Ghost leads folks forward in a progressive manner from birth to maturity, it is impossible to get to maturity without first coming up against the truth of water baptism in Jesus name.

You say you believe in water baptism in Jesus name, but your posts seem to indicate differently. And then you wonder why you get that same question over and over, "do you really believe it?".

LOL.

I believe water baptism is properly administered in the name of Jesus Christ.

We disagree on the what water baptism signifies and what it means to be baptized/immersed into His name.

My posts are not cryptic or any different from the Apostolic message of the primitive church.

Furthermore, the age old contrivance that if Trinnies truly have the Holy Spirit then they will be in lock step to my views .... is bordering on blasphemous ... are you denying that they are not indwelt with the Spirit of our Father.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I would say that Paul would argue with you over what name is correct for being water baptized. He stressed the name used as being important.

1Cr 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them [which are of the house] of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
1Cr 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Cr 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Cr 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

I find it sad that you would have such contention over using Jesus' name for baptism.

Apparently, the phrase I of Christ means nothing to you. We are baptized into Christ ... His salvation ... not Paul's or Apollos' or Cephas'.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Apparently, the phrase I of Christ means nothing to you. We are baptized into Christ ... His salvation ... not Paul's or Apollos' or Cephas'.

Paul is speaking of water baptism, where this occurs.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Paul is speaking of water baptism, where this occurs.

and we should do all things in His name.

Adino ... brought did a fabulous job in the Sinful Union thread ...

in pointing out the dilemma Oneness Water and Spirit adherents have in explaining how God can establish UNION with us if we are still dead in our sins...

This idea is applicable in this thread because in one breathe most traditional OP's accept that Trinnies are Spirit-filled but somehow have not been washed from their sins because of a poorly articulated baptismal ceremony.

Here is one of his posts:

I did not say the believer who sins will be separated from God. Because sin has been dealt with in the heart of the believer, the believer abides in Christ even if he should stumble. On the other hand, sin has not been dealt with in the heart of the unbeliever. The believer is righteous before God because he rests "in Christ," while the unbeliever rests "outside of Christ" on his own inadequate merit and is viewed as being under sin and unrighteous (Romans 3:9-10).

The believer perpetually abides in Christ (and the spirit of Christ in him) because he perpetually believes. Like each of us sitting at our computers are now in a constant state of "being" physically alive, believers in Christ are in a constant state of "being" spiritually alive. They are in a constant state of "being" righteous because they are perpetually receiving God's righteousness imputed to them through faith in Christ (Romans 3:21-22). In Christ we are perpetually alive and right before God, therefore perpetually forgiven. By virtue of constant faith in Christ who is our righteousness (1Corinthians 1:30) we remain constantly right before God...... even when we stumble.

Our rightness before God is not dependent on our right actions (Romans 4:4-8) but on God's righteousness. Since our salvation is based fully on a righteousness imputed to us we need not freak out when we stumble and fall. If we should find that we have stumbled we must simply rely on the cross, remember we are crucified with Christ and recognize we live not because of our works but because Christ lives in us by faith (Galatians 2:17-21).

The sins of those who have not believed are still imputed to them, they are still condemned to eternal separation from God and will remain thus until they are no longer under sin by virtue of being "in Christ" (John 3:14-18; Romans 8:1).

I am under the impression it is being suggested by many that Cornelius had the life of Christ living in him while he was yet under sin. I do not see this as being theologically possible.

http://apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=6379

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

LOL.

I believe water baptism is properly administered in the name of Jesus Christ.

We disagree on the what water baptism signifies and what it means to be baptized/immersed into His name.

My posts are not cryptic or any different from the Apostolic message of the primitive church.

Furthermore, the age old contrivance that if Trinnies truly have the Holy Spirit then they will be in lock step to my views .... is bordering on blasphemous ... are you denying that they are not indwelt with the Spirit of our Father.

I will answer this one, and then I am gone for now.


It is not up to me to judge whether a trinitarian has received the Holy Ghost, or a false spirit. My personal view is that most do receive the real deal (There are goof balls in ALL of Pentecost that didn't get the real).

My issue is that at some point the Holy Ghost that is leading them forward into a relationship with God will show them that to be water baptized in Jesus name is the biblical way. It is where they are buried with him, and baptized into his death. At the point that the Holy Ghost brings this to them, if they reject it, then they have rejected Gods word, and the leading of Gods Spirit.

Now as to whether of not they are part of the body prior to water baptism, I will leave that debate to you good people. My only issue is that they WILL be led by the Holy Ghost to the water to be baptized again in Jesus name. A "Paul" will find them and ask them:

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.