Can someone please tell me...?!

[RandyWayne]

There are MANY ministers who are "1 steppers".... including my own pastor. We still baptize in Jesus name, but as a condition of obedience to the scripture. We are considered "saved" from the moment we simply ASK God to SAVE us!

Even most "infidels" and atheistic writers I have read were ladies and gentlemen in their conduct (Ayn Rand, Steven J. Gould, Carl Sagan, etc).

This is great incite. One man that I follow quite a bit is James Randi. He IS an avowed atheist but also has done a great service to mankind through his exposure of hucksters passing tricks off as supernatural skills. Things like psychic surgery, astrology, water witching, spiritualism, and many televangelists. Being a magician myself I have an innate outlook into how people tend to perceive things.

An old pastor of ours, Ernest Maki, was a wonderful man. I was going through a VERY difficult time then so did not have nearly the relationship that I would have wanted, but because of him, I stayed around! He was a UPCer his whole life but realized the power of GRACE and more importantly, the Blood, toward the end of his life.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I hope I wasn't misunderstood. When I put the "weak on doctrine" remark in quotes like that I meant to convey that this is not my opinion of the men you listed.

Of all the names I can say that I only met one, Brother Beesley, personally. But I was greatly influenced by the writings of John Dearing when I was a teenager and greatly admired the man. Brother Greer was a mentor for men that helped to shape my life and beliefs.

That being said, I was brought up and discipled in what many would call the "opposite" school of thought within the UPC. I respect and have appreciated what these "conservatives" (their word for themselves, not mine) have done for me and my family over the years.

However, in the long run I would have to say that those closest to me have probably hurt the fellowship a great deal. I am disappointed to say that it was their criticism of men like Brothers Greer, Dearing, Beesley and the others (and even still some more) that was most hurtful. It was wrong to "kick them to the curb..."

UPC ministers, in order to get a Local License had to read dozens of Bible Studies written by John Dearing (no longer the case). The fact that this was required reading led me to believe at the time that the UPC taught Dearing's exposition of Romans 4:17 - this was Dearing's consolation regarding his saintly grandmother who had passed before the Holy Ghost outpouring in 1900 and the revelation of the Mighty God in Christ. He felt that "by faith..." God would call his grandmother's Matthew 28:19 style baptism as being sufficient for salvation. Since I had to read this and learn this in order to become a minister, I thought that this was our doctrine -that "trinitarians" can be saved.

In 1992, this was all done away with. The UPC told me (and everyone else) to forget what we had learned from them. They were changing the fundamental doctrine and everyone had to line up and agree with the change- without adequate explanation or discussion. Was anyone else in that meeting?

What you call "kicking to the curb..." - I would go even further and say it was a deliberate act of deception against the entire ministerial constituancy. One of our greatest leaders had to apologize the following year for telling a little fib in order to get that resolution passed. This man had the greatest reputation imaginable, and deserved it! Yet our destructive way of doing business forced such a good man to tell a lie. The direct result of that lie is the UPC of today.

I hope this helps. I did find agreement with what you said. This medium of exchange can be kind of bumpy for me when I try to communicate.

This is true (bolded), even when Thomas Fudge was researching for "Christianity Without the Cross" he was banded from the archives at UPCI headquarters. What is this? Can't let the natives learn the truth? I was born and raised UPC and did not know these things until I read Fudge's book several years ago.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Do you think the UPC is changing from those days in 1992?

Yes.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Do you think 'one steppers' would be given a license?

I was offered mine back. And the man who made the offer was named in Tom Fudge's book as a ... I forget the word, but supposedly "hard core?"

A lot of the generalizations of this rift fail to reveal the very complicated dynamics of the individual and the influence a single individual can wield at the right times.

Once, a new friend introduced me to his wife. In the conversation it turned out she had the same last name as a notorious "conservative." She mentioned her father Brother... I said, "Oh, Brother... in ...?" She immediately stiffened and said, "No! Not that Brother... " I learned then how that even within families there are some very serious differences of opinion.

People don't like the way things are. Nobody does. But we've got so much momentum behind our learned behavior that it's hard to break free. I think we have some very valuable things to offer to the world in general and to Evangelical Christianity in particular. But we're robbing them and ourselves at the same time.

To be fair, to us and everyone else: these types of issues are prevalent in just about every type of group and denomination.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Do you think those who don't hold to the AS and all its standards such as owning a tv would be given a license?

"AS"? Apostolic Standards? The way to get around the TV ban is to fit a TV tuner card into your PC's PCI expansion slot and away you go. Let me see, I have either seen or installed such a card in Brother ...'s computer and ... and ... and ... Just have any UPC pastor who seems to stay really up on current events bring his PC over to you for some work and you can see how he's been watching the Fox News Channel.

Some say that this is also banned already but I think most preachers see the changes coming on the horizon and are just getting their feet in the water. Years ago I asked, "What happens when TV programming is available - but without a TV? Do we ban electricity?" People laughed like I was an idiot.

I was an idiot. I should have been buying stock back then.

To answer your question straightly; yes, it just depends on how you answer the questions and who has a grudge against whom. If there's a grudge going on, then it doesn't matter how "clean" a man is, he's not getting in. We're kind of like the US Senate in that way.

A single determined and stubborn individual can hold things up for whatever reason they want. Sometimes they do it just to prove how "tough" they are. You don't want the brethren saying that you've gone "soft" on doctrine or standards. You don't even have to name the doctrines or standards. Just say, "they've let down..." or "they're soft..."

I was kept out of an unnamed Bible College because its president was aid to have "compromised..." No one said what he "compromised..." I was just told to go to another unnamed school. After I had already been accepted and met the comprising president and his dean.

[Old Paths]

Originally Posted by LadyRev

Bro. Wm Greer's signature is on the bottom of a copy of Rev. Hazel M. Simpson's ordination papers which are displayed on a plaque that hangs on the wall of the Millington UPC, Millington, TN. To the credit of the current pastor, it is one of the first things he did when he took over the church - which was to honor the woman of God that pastored it for 27 years before him. The display of this plaque was just one of many things he did.

Bro. Greer didn't win any brownie points for approving the ordination of a woman. But then again, he didn't care about brownie points!

Not to mention that Sis. Simpson was of the PAJC view also.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"AS"? Apostolic Standards? The way to get around the TV ban is to fit a TV tuner card into your PC's PCI expansion slot and away you go. Let me see, I have either seen or installed such a card in Brother ...'s computer and ... and ... and ... Just have any UPC pastor who seems to stay really up on current events bring his PC over to you for some work and you can see how he's been watching the Fox News Channel.

The Affirmation Statement.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I personally think the merger itself was a bad plan...

I both agree and disagree. Sorry to say that. But you have to look at the motivation for the "3 steppers" to bring in the PCI. The PCI was a very effectively run and financially solid organization; not that the PAJC was in trouble or anything. The PCI was just doing a much better job at missions for a group of its size. They were far out-doing (is that a word?) the PAJC in just about every way despite only being 1/3 the size.

Originally Posted by stmatthew

And I understand why it would be the 3-step guys that did the striving. Consider that while the 1-steppers could look at the 3-steppers as ok, but just adding to the message, the 3-steppers could only look at the 1-steppers as not preaching the entire message, thereby giving a false hope of salvation.

If I add the idea of "game theory" to your excellent thought, I think RW and SheltieDad could probably have a field day.

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Some would say that Love should have prevailed. I agree that there should have been more love and less hate, but do you join hands in love with those who he feels opposes the message he preaches?

I will contend, without any justification and without any reasonable support - that the PAJC "crowd" does in fact earnestly love the PCI gang (and I don't think you meant to imply otherwise).

What we need is a better basis for merging. Love and the fact that the "other guy" has his act together in missions doesn't necessarily mean we will continue to love. RW and ShaggyDad need to come up with a better way to work out the almost M.A.D. like game theory problem of the merger. How do we set up the chess board so that one meme doesn't dominate?

First, why does it dominate? Because the "3 stepper" program must bite and devour the "1 stepper" plan just to survive? Given this setting, the "1 steppers" had better wake up and realize that their survival is at stake. Perhaps competing organizations would allow us to once again observe the "invisible hand of the market" and we'll all subscribe to the PCI.

I will now further contend - without any reasonable proof - that even the most acidic "3 steppers" are secretly "1 steppers" at heart. I say this based only upon my relationship with a few of the feistiest ones that I know of. In every private conversation I've ever had, these guys will confess that they are really pushing so hard with their public statements in order to "raise the bar" to a higher level than what they really expect people to follow.

The whole "all trinitarians are automatically lost" and the "dress up like a Muslim in a burka" stuff is just hyperbole. Pigeon hole one of these guys and mano e mano they will state that they are really following a strategy here of hype. It's the same game that the prosperity preachers play but on a different field.

Push the bar up so high that no one can reach it because wherever the bar is- people will always come up just a little short. Tell the girls to wear skirts to their ankles if you want them to cover the knee. It's that type of thinking. Remove that “strategy” from the game and people will suddenly become more reasonable. Then it’s just overcoming the natural carnality that plagues mankind – but we’ve got that whooped already, don’t we?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by pealathais

I will now further contend - without any reasonable proof - that even the most acidic "3 steppers" are secretly "1 steppers" at heart. I say this based only upon my relationship with a few of the feistiest ones that I know of. In every private conversation I've ever had, these guys will confess that they are really pushing so hard with their public statements in order to "raise the bar" to a higher level than what they really expect people to follow.

This is exactly what I've been saying for the past several years on these forums.

Glad to hear someone else saying it.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The Affirmation Statement.

'doh! (oops, that gives my TV away).

I think there should always be some sort of AS that must be signed - but not every year (or every 2 years) like some sort of nanny thing. The way it is, it's just belligerent and silly.

However, when we go back to the fact that in 1992 the vast majority of ministers had signed on under the old "Required Reading" plan, and the fact that plan included PCI material that mitigated the harsher aspects of the PAJC view - then what the General Board and the General Conference did in 1992 was illegal, unethical and immoral. This is the point that I think needs to be brought up and argued at a GC.

Without even realizing it, WE changed everything. When I first signed for my card in 1985 I thought I was subscribing to J.H.D.'s interpretation of Romans 4:17 and that I was NOT a part of a group that condemned every other Christian organization as being "lost."

When I signed again in 1993 - I thought I was just re-upping, as it were. In time, I learned that I was wrong. Our doctrine had officially been changed and we had become something that I never would have joined in the first place. And, that change was made in an underhanded and delibertly deceitfull fashion.

There are several men who need to be flown in to the next General Conference, lined up on the platform and the entire assembly should pass by, shake their hand and apologize. We owe them at least that much.

[Sam]

I think there are a lot more one steppers among us than we realize.

Some are afraid to admit it for fear of being called a compromiser.

Some don't realize that you can call yourself Apostolic or Oneness Pentecostal and be a one stepper. Lot's of fine folks through the years, even in positions of leadership, have been one steppers. Some people just don't want you to know that.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

There are MANY ministers who are "1 steppers".... including my own pastor. We still baptize in Jesus name, but as a condition of obedience to the scripture. We are considered "saved" from the moment we simply ASK God to SAVE us!
...

In the Wisconsin District?