Show Me the Money

[Steve Epley]

You know I don't remember anyone speaking of a salary cap when my wife and myself were walking the street selling peanuit brittle???? Just a thought??
Do you guys have a ceiling cap on your salary??????????? There is a cap on mine ONLY 10% never 12% or 20% it is always the same and has been since Abraham met Melchizedec.
When only $400 a week came in and I was responsible for the church bills no one ever complained. Brother God will make away. But when the guy gave me the $8 million the fuss started.

And J-Roc said, "This is my thread, in whom I am well pleased. Post ye here!"

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You know I don't remember anyone speaking of a salary cap when my wife and myself were walking the street selling peanuit brittle???? Just a thought??
Do you guys have a ceiling cap on your salary??????????? There is a cap on mine ONLY 10% never 12% or 20% it is always the same and has been since Abraham met Melchizedec.
When only $400 a week came in and I was responsible for the church bills no one ever complained. Brother God will make away. But when the guy gave me the $8 million the fuss started.

you were given 8million?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

If that be true, then why is it taught today only one is to be given???I think I know, but will let you answer.


Maybe another day i'll show there wasn't three or 4 tithes but the tithe was used differently depending on what year it was.

Bump fro Elder Epley It was refering to the thought there was 4 tithes.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You know I don't remember anyone speaking of a salary cap when my wife and myself were walking the street selling peanuit brittle???? Just a thought??
Do you guys have a ceiling cap on your salary??????????? There is a cap on mine ONLY 10% never 12% or 20% it is always the same and has been since Abraham met Melchizedec.
When only $400 a week came in and I was responsible for the church bills no one ever complained. Brother God will make away. But when the guy gave me the $8 million the fuss started.

I am so glad you mentioned MELCHIZEDEC AND ABRAHAM ... you are not suggesting that Abraham gave him 10% of all of his income are you????

I marvel at how Abraham, who predates the law of Moses, is conveniently used as an example, albeit poor, yet when teaching tithing most of it is based on the law of Moses.

Let's examine the scriptures:

Sometimes, to avoid the charge of inconsistency over
when the Law applies, modern-day levitical advocates claim Abra-
ham tithed. Based upon Paul’s teaching in Galatians 4,
they say we are part of that covenant. Thus, by endorsing
tithing, they would say they are not insisting upon a
return to the Law of Moses.

However, Abraham’s tithe is not a legitimate example of
the tithe they are advocating. His tithe was not on income
or crops.

Abraham merely gave 10% of his booty in war to the
priest, Melchisedek. (Gen. 14:20-23. See also, Heb. 7:4.)
He returned the remaining 90% to those from whom he
took the items in the first place. (Gen. 14:23.)

So rarely do the tithe-advocates end there. Abraham’s
tithe is an insufficient example.
[Many] cite Abraham’s example, but then firmly base their
tithing instructions on the Law of Moses.

Source: http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/Lesson...%20tithing.pdf

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

And levites don't even exist today. Another interesting point is jesus came from the tribe of Judah and it would be unlawful for a person from the tribe of Judah to receive tithes when it was comanded to give to Levites.

Isn't it amazing however ... how some think there is a modern class of Levites in the church today????

They teach tithing as if they were Levites ...
but won't compensate the other Levites such as musicians for their work in the house of the Lord ...

and they hand down pastorships to their sons and sons-in-laws as if they were part of a Levitical lineage ... with no or little concern to being Spirit-led or .... whether or not Junior Levite is qualified or not.

[SDG]

Mizpeh ... I addressed your questions about Malachi in the last couple of pages.

Here is your other question:

1) What do you suppose the writer of this paper intends tithes for Christians to be? From what I understand he considers tithing to be paying taxes to the government for services provided. Do you believe he is suggesting the government will give preachers (priests or ministers of the word) 10% of the total tax?

2) 10% over 3 years as a type of Social Security (to the poor, elderly, widows, immigrants)

3) 10% on vacations.

Does this person support those who labor in the word of God?

I cannot presuppose what the answer of the writer would be ... however ... I'm almost sure he like many who see the inconsistency of tithe teaching, the lack of a NT mandate for it, and the abundance of evidence of grace-based giving under the new covenant ... would tell you that the Church has a responsibility to go far beyond tithing when supporting those who labor in the word of God.


As for me, I commend Christians who practice tithing as a voluntary practice, as Abraham did, as a way to enable the church to fulfill its God-given commission to preach the gospel to the world. It's the teaching of it being compulsory, even salvational, and the misapplication of its usages that is bothersome to me. If a person wants to give 10% as benchmark for their giving .... Praise God.

Yet ... what does the Word tell us about giving and filling the needs of the Church ... I believe the following article addresses the issue in a sound way.

----------------------------------------------

Needs in the new covenant ministry

In the new covenant church, there are financial needs — to support the poor, and to support the gospel by supporting those who preach it. Christians are obligated to give financial support for these needs. Let's see how Paul explained this obligation in his second letter to the Corinthians. Paul describes himself as a minister of the new covenant (2 Cor. 3:6), which has much greater glory than the old (verse 8). Because of what Christ did for him in the new covenant, Christ's love compelled Paul to preach the gospel, the message of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:11-21). Paul exhorted the Corinthians "not to receive God's grace in vain" (6:1). How were they in danger of doing this? Paul had gone out of his way to serve them, but they were withholding their affections from him (6:3-12). He asked them for a fair exchange, for them to open their hearts to him (6:13). Paul told the Corinthians that they had a duty to give something in response to what they had been given. This response comes in terms of morality (6:14-7:1), which the Corinthians had done (7:8-13), and in terms of affection, which the Corinthians had also done (7:2-7), and in financial generosity, which Paul addresses in chapter 8. This is the way in which the Corinthians had closed their hearts to Paul and withheld their affections.

Paul cited the example of the Macedonian churches, who had given generously, even to the point of self-sacrifice (8:1-5). The example is powerful; the implications are strong that the Corinthians needed to respond to Paul's sacrifices by making sacrifices themselves. But Paul did not make a command (8:8). Instead, he asked first for a turning of the heart. He wanted the Corinthians to give themselves to the Lord first, and then to support Paul. He wanted their gift to be done in sincere love, not from compulsion (8:5, 8). Paul reminded them that Christ had become poor for their sakes; the implication is that the Corinthians should make financial sacrifices in return. But then Paul reduced the pressure, reminding the Corinthians that they could not give more than they had (8:12). Nor did they have to impoverish themselves to enrich others; Paul was only aiming for equity (8:13-14). Paul again expressed confidence in their willingness to give, and added the peer pressure of the Macedonian example and the boasting he had done in Macedonia about the generosity of the Corinthians (8:24-9:5). Paul again noted that the offering must be done willingly, not from compulsion or given grudgingly (9:5, 7). He reminded them that God rewards generosity (9:6-11) and that a good example causes people to praise God and puts the gospel in a favorable setting (9:12-14).

This was a collection for the poor in Judea. But Paul said nothing about tithing. Rather, he appealed to the new covenant environment: Christ had made many sacrifices for them, so they ought to be willing to make a few sacrifices to help one another. In asking for this offering, Paul was also making a financial sacrifice. He had a right to receive financial support himself, but instead of that, he was asking that the offering be given to others. Paul had not asked for any financial support from Corinth (11:7-11; 12:13-16). Instead, he had been supported by Macedonians (11:9). Paul had a right to be supported by the Corinthians, but he did not use it (1 Cor. 9:3-15). This passage in Paul's first letter tells us more about our Christian duty to give financial support to the gospel. Workers should be able to receive benefits of their work (9:7). The old covenant even made provision for oxen to be given benefits of their work (9:9). Throughout his appeal, Paul does not cite any laws of tithing. He says that priests received benefits from their work in the temple (9:13), but he does not cite any percentage. {** Keep in mind the Aaronic priests received 1/10th , or 1%, of the tithe … receive from the Levites] Their example is cited in the same way as the example of soldiers, vineyard workers, herdsmen, oxen, plowers and threshers. It is simply a general principle.

As Jesus said, "The worker deserves his wages" (Luke 10:7). Paul cited the oxen and wages scriptures again in 1 Timothy 5:17-18. Elders, especially those who preach and teach, should be honored financially as well as with respect. Jesus also commanded, "those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel" (1 Cor. 9:14). This implies that those who believe should provide a living for some who preach. There is a financial duty, and there is a promised reward for generosity (though that reward may not necessarily be physical or financial)

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

You know I don't remember anyone speaking of a salary cap when my wife and myself were walking the street selling peanuit brittle???? Just a thought??
Do you guys have a ceiling cap on your salary??????????? There is a cap on mine ONLY 10% never 12% or 20% it is always the same and has been since Abraham met Melchizedec.
When only $400 a week came in and I was responsible for the church bills no one ever complained. Brother God will make away. But when the guy gave me the $8 million the fuss started.

Saying it is "only 10%, never 12% or 20%" clearly demonstrates you have no idea about financial concepts...10% can be a very large number. Consider Real Estate Brokers who charge "only 4%" as you would describe as "only"....and yet that can be 4% on a 1 million dollar house or 4% on a 5 million dollar house...either way, the number can be huge when we know what the amount is. Now imagine if they charged a hefty 10% commission fee....Elder, your statement clearly demonstrates your lack of knowledge in money matters....while the percentage number does not move, the amount taken in increases to large amounts...

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

As for me, I commend Christians who practice tithing as a voluntary practice, as Abraham did, as a way to enable the church to fulfill its God-given commission to preach the gospel to the world. It's the teaching of it being compulsory, even salvational, and the misapplication of its usages that is bothersome to me. If a person wants to give 10% as benchmark for their giving .... Praise God.

Absolutely, Dan! Let no one make no mistake here...this issue at hand IS NOT about giving....rather, the issues are (as you pointed out so eloquently) about the compulsory rules-based teaching, its guilt-inducing tactics, its soteriological implications and its means of distribution! These are some of the paramount issues that need to be addressed!

[SDG]

Exactly Master Shalom ... this has never been about giving .... It's sad that the oracles would like to manipulate it as such.