Show Me the Money

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Elder ... my Dad put his life, sweat, tears and even ignored his own personal health for the Kingdom and the sheep he loved. No one is asking a pastor to take an oath of poverty ... but to ask them to be fiscally responsible and show moderation is not too much to ask ... since it is what they also demand of their saints ...

for most of his ministry dad was bi-vocational ... working as a pastor and an x-ray technician .... mom worked full-time since age 16 ....

Dad did not take all of the tithe ... and is was his right ... he chose to take a moderate salary which pales to the income most ministers w/ smaller churches flaunt... the rest of the church revenue was invested into the work of God locally, nationally and internationally and some saved ... for many years .... allowing the church to purchase a building next door prior to his death w/o putting unnecessary strain of the flock.

The scenario Jeff brings up is poignant and indicative of the mentality some in the ministry have ... the fictitious minister of this church would be irresponsible to take all of this tithe ... and not invest it in a church that apparently needs resources and an influx of ideas and resources.

Dan your father's story is the story of most Pentecostal preachers I have known. We ONLY seem to notice when the tide turns and they are financially secure. If a man paid me 8 million dollars in tithe what could I do with 8 million dollars. For me to horde it with missionaries in need and home missionaries in need and evangelists that need help and poor saints that need assisstance no way. However turn the page suppose a saint recieved this???
Would you expect them to give away every nickle. Most of the saints would expect them to make their families secure for life I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I KNOW what I would do BECAUSE I know what I have done.

[SDG]

I always wonder about preachers who are keeping all of the tithe and then every Sunday raise 2 or 3 offerings for various needs ... like we need a new projector ...

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Thank you, HeadMaster Daniel, for sharing that awesome lesson on tithing...that is worth printing out and putting in respository!

Before doing that you might check it out for the incorrectness of it. Dan is off on this like most everything else.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Dan your father's story is the story of most Pentecostal preachers I have known. We ONLY seem to notice when the tide turns and they are financially secure. If a man paid me 8 million dollars in tithe what could I do with 8 million dollars. For me to horde it with missionaries in need and home missionaries in need and evangelists that need help and poor saints that need assisstance no way. However turn the page suppose a saint recieved this???
Would you expect them to give away every nickle. Most of the saints would expect them to make their families secure for life I say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I KNOW what I would do BECAUSE I know what I have done.

Most of the saints who have elected this pastor into his office ... for the most part should have a say ... in making sure he is secure while also ensuring the grain is rightfully and responsibly distributed.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Has anyone besides me noticed the ONLY worry seems if the preacher has too much NEVER if he has too little????????????????????????

Most pastors I have known have sacrificed for years and done without and their families did without and was glad to do it for the Kingdom and no one ever fusses about the suits-shirts-dresses they bought at Goodwill, the retread tires on their cars, the fund raising their wives did. The jobs these pastors held down while trying to build a church. The puttting in of their last nickle to make sure a church bill was paid or an evangelist-missionary got a decent offering. How their car became the church bus. Some lived in the church building itself for a season.

But let the same man who laboured and struggled to bring a church to where it is financially strong-nice sanctuary-etc. And the man start to enjoy some of the fruit of his labour and he is a money hungry preacher looking out for number one. NOT trying to pat my self on the back but I have paid saints' rent-utility bills-car payments-paid for their children to go to youth camps. I don't know any saints that have done the same for other saints except in very rare cases.
But I am suppose to feel crooked or not a good steward if I buy a suit off the rack or my wife buys a new dress that really wasn't on sale, or my house is a decent home to live in? My car doors stay closed without baling wire?
I did not take the oath of poverty though I am willing to live on what God gives me no matter how less it is without complaint I have proved that to God and myself. But I also am going to be thankful and enjoy the good times God has let come my way. Remember ONE message or ONE church problem can change everything overnight.

Bro. there are plenty of situations where the tithe is into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and even into millions of dollars. A church of 200-300 regular attenders will produce 500k to 1.5 million in tithe, so let's be honest enough to admit there is potential for excess. When I was an elder the pastor of the church received over 100K in salary, a new car, 1K per month of the very best medical insurance, retirement plan and virtually unlimited expense account, and a built-in 3% min. annual increase. I never once heard a complaint that he was receiving too little, nor too much for that matter.

I know there are plenty of pastors that live on very limited incomes, but check their members they also struggle to make ends meet. No matter scripture does not support one man control, unaccountable to others.

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Irrelevant ... isn't it AE? ... I applaud all bi-vocational pastors ... it's the leeches that need a lesson in moderation ... a buzzword used to beat folks up about their outward dress ... but it should apply to many aspects of our spiritual and financial lives

How is it irrelevant? You seem to have all the answers here. I assumed you had the experience to match the wisdom.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro. there are plenty of situations where the tithe is into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and even into millions of dollars. A church of 200-300 regular attenders will produce 500k to 1.5 million in tithe, so let's be honest enough to admit there is potential for excess. When I was an elder the pastor of the church received over 100K in salary, a new car, 1K per month of the very best medical insurance, retirement plan and virtually unlimited expense account, and a built-in 3% min. annual increase. I never once heard a complaint that he was receiving too little, nor too much for that matter.

I know there are plenty of pastors that live on very limited incomes, but check their members they also struggle to make ends meet. No matter scripture does not support one man control, unaccountable to others.

That's bible ... yet some don't want any accountability .... no matter how some would want to twist and distort scripture .... the tithe was also for the widows and orphans and those struggling to make ends meet...

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Yes again not boasting but I rolled the carpet off my floor and sold it to a saint to pay the evangelist and the saint was glad to get it. Not complaining I have carpet today so God blessed me. My gift was to HIM he keeps good books. I am blessed much more than I am worth or deserve. I deserve a pup tent by a creek bed and to ride a bycycle. But somewhere along the line God has took a liking to me and has blessed me I KNOW it can change tomorrow but if it does He gave and He can take away. I have been bountifully blessed. I live in a beautiful home and drive a nice car but if God says leave tomorrow I am out of here I belong to HIM not things. My love affair is with the Giver not the gifts. Have I ever been unwise NO doubt but I happen to pastor saints that sometimes are not the brightest either in financial judgments. I have been abased and have abounded God was real in both places. We have lived in the church and did not complain. Soi why should I hang my head now?????? To me it would insult God and show unthankfulness for His goodness to me. I am blessed full and empty. He is exalted.

And I heard of a woman I do not know personally that was a friend of my mother-in-law and she lost her teaching job after teaching over 30 years at a school...long story short the bankers were knocking on her door since she had not been able to pay her mortgage on her house and to top things off she had a lien already on the house and could not pay that either. So I wiped out the debt on the lien, then I paid off the remainder of her mortgage which was about five years left on the mortgage so that she can live free and clear from worry of her, her mother, her two sisters and her son (with no man in the house) being thrown out in the streets....this is ridiculous that I am even sharing this, but you act as if "saints" don't have their stories to tell too....so let's set aside the silly back-patting and move on with the discussion and not self-aggrandizement.

[Jehoram]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Bro. there are plenty of situations where the tithe is into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, and even into millions of dollars. A church of 200-300 regular attenders will produce 500k to 1.5 million in tithe, so let's be honest enough to admit there is potential for excess. When I was an elder the pastor of the church received over 100K in salary, a new car, 1K per month of the very best medical insurance, retirement plan and virtually unlimited expense account, and a built-in 3% min. annual increase. I never once heard a complaint that he was receiving too little, nor too much for that matter.

I know there are plenty of pastors that live on very limited incomes, but check their members they also struggle to make ends meet. No matter scripture does not support one man control, unaccountable to others.

It is so hilarious to hear some posters who despise the idea of accountability in their lives call for ministerial accountability. Of course, I do not mean you specifically. I think the saints should show their W-2's and checking and savings account balances to the church board as well. It would be a good way for them to show they believe in accountability.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Alter Ego

How is it irrelevant? You seem to have all the answers here. I assumed you had the experience to match the wisdom.

Perhaps we should stop calling this a "discussion" forum and allow the Levites to pontificate to us ... gimme a break AE ... I was a PK for 32 years of my life ... I have eyes and ears ... I saw teenage PK's who were driving BMWs and and other new luxury cars and their daddys had significantly smaller churches and didnt have any sugar saints like the one mentioned by Jeff ...

Give the separation between laity and ministry doctrine a rest.