JT Pugh on Commitment

[Pastor Keith]

Thought this was a very good and intersting quote from JT Pugh, I don't think that I have ever heard it this way before.

What do you think?

On page 99 in his book the Flesh of God he tells the a story about a conservative church that voted in a talented young man as Pastor. He eventually moved them away from their lifestyle commitments and doctrine. To use his words to liberalize their lifestyle and doctrine.

Yet he wanted them to keep their relationship with Jesus and the church. He expected them to pray, attend church, worship and give. He was startled and puzzeled that within a year people begin to miss church regularly.

This is the quote that really stood out, "I have wondered if he every concluded that it is impossible to trash a commitment sincerely made without damaging or destroying the relationship."

He goes on to say that this is a common thing and principle in every relationship and bonding that is it conmmensurate on commitment.

He follows up by saying that commitiment does not guarantee a relation, but we can be sure that there will not be a strong, meaningful personal relationship without it.

What you think about this?

[berkeley]

Don't give the conservatives fuel for their argument that going lib destroys churches.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

Don't give the conservatives fuel for their argument that going lib destroys churches.

Berkley I thought about that, but someone with JT Pughs credentials and and credibility demands that he is listened to.

He later does go on to say that some churches need to change their doctrines and methods to gain greater revelation and more intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. I am all for this

Yet he is warning that people who in mass or singly leave Apostolic Doctrine or weaken personal commitment for selfish convience it will affect their personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

[berkeley]

"I have wondered if he every concluded that it is impossible to trash a commitment sincerely made without damaging or destroying the relationship."

I'm not really a deep thinker anymore.. but I'll try to express myself::::::

The peoples commitment to the UC lifestyle was tied into their relationship with God.
Throwing this out, the people threw away their walk with the Lord.
The result, there was no real commitment. My thought, if their commitment
was tied into the standards then it was not a real commitment. Their focus
was a works based salvation. When they had no works to perform,
they lost their purpose.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

I'm not really a deep thinker anymore.. but I'll give it a shot::::::

The peoples commitment to the UC lifestyle was tied into their relationship with God.
Throwing this out, the people threw away their walk with the Lord.
The result, there was no real commitment. My thought, if their commitment
was tied into the standards then it was not a real commitment. Their focus
was a works based salvation. When they had no works to perform,
they lost their purpose.

Ok, good start, I agree that a relationship based on works is no real relationship, we have entered into a walk of faith but lets draw some analogies from marriage.

A marriage starts with some commitments, faithfulness and fidelity, love, etc.

Part of that commitment is the husband being a good provider, being home nightly instead of hanging out with the boys, the wife being a good homemaker, washing the clothes, keeping the home tidy etc.

After some time, if the husband starts to head to the watering hole instead of coming home as was his custom, do you not think it will eventually affect the relationship that was based on love, fidelity and faithfulness?

By the way Berkley I am having a arguement with myself as I go through this.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Ok, good start, I agree that a relationship based on works is no real relationship, we have entered into a walk of faith but lets draw some analogies from marriage.

A marriage starts with some commitments, faithfulness and fidelity, love, etc.

Part of that commitment is the husband being a good provider, being home nightly instead of hanging out with the boys, the wife being a good homemaker, washing the clothes, keeping the home tidy etc.

After some time, if the husband starts to head to the watering hole instead of coming home as was his custom, do you not think it will eventually affect the relationship that was based on love, fidelity and faithfulness?

By the way Berkley I am having a arguement with myself as I go through this.

Yes, I believe some things are required of the saints of God. But most things that people make an issue over are not even in the book. Why are you arguing with yourself? Sounds as if you are going through a transition.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

Yes, I believe some things are required of the saints of God. But most things that people make an issue over are not even in the book. Why are you arguing with yourself? Sounds as if you are going through a transition.

No transition, but this quote stood out, as I have pastored people who went through this, I have wondered why they have no passion for God, they don't pray, barely get them there on Sunday.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by keith4him

No transition, but this quote stood out, as I have pastored people who went through this, I have wondered why they have no passion for God, they don't pray, barely get them there on Sunday.

I don't know what to say about that. I'm barely getting back into the groove of things. But, I love my liberty. I don't feel like I'm not good enough to approach the throne.
It was very scary when I started walking in faith. I felt so insecure without the extra fences around me.

[Rico]

Keith4him, I am starting to think that maybe some of those boundries can be pretty useful. I know that things like dress standards and suchlike are really carnal areas, but I am starting to wonder if maybe following those guidelines has a way of providing useful training of sorts that can be utilized for developing discipline in more more spritual areas, like prayer, faithfulness, spiritual integrity, etc.

[Brett Prince]

A works-based commitment?

Could not marriage be said to be a works-based commitment?

Could your career not be said to be works-based?

If your definition of works-based commitment is founded in the idea that your commitment also brought forth certain disciplines, and promises regarding that discipline--then ALL DISCIPLINES are works-based, and therefore, all commitments that brought or asked for discipline in certain areas is works-based.

If the only acceptable commitment is one that just says my heart will love you, but my actions matter not, that is a rather shallow commitment indeed.

If we had that kind of commitment from parents to children, from bosses to employees, and vice versa--we would have a sorry world indeed.

You go find me a marriage where one partner or the other decides it is okay to step outside the bonds of matrimony for their "carnal pleasures," and I will show you a marriage whose commitments have faltered, and it is exceedingly likely that the marriage will not remain intact.

You go find me a work relationship where either the employee feels it no longer necessary to perform the job they are paid to do, or the employer feels it is no longer necessary to reward the work that he has asked of his employee, and I will show you a work relationship that is most likely going to come to a screeching halt in a relatively short amount of time.

One absolutely DOES make certain commitments, usually involving certain disciplines, when they come to God. And, whatever that discipline entailed, when it ceases to exist, it damages the relationship. That is not to say that the discipline cannot be changed to another, or replaced in some fashion--or that contractual boundaries, in the corporate sense of the word, cannot be changed or "redefined," but with almost ANY relationship, the commitment comes with certain disciplines, either negotiated, or generally understood.