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  #201  
Old 04-25-2014, 03:10 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Do you, or anyone on here, believe that G-d is more immense and wise than the entire Universe? I do believe G-d is, as the creator is always greater than the creation.
So God exists separate from and above His own creation? He is involved, and even "in" the universe, but He also exists ontologically apart from the universe.

I wonder "where" that "place" is and if whether or not we should call it "heaven", an otherwise true reality only known and experienced through spectral manifestations and revelation given to us by God???
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  #202  
Old 04-25-2014, 03:11 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Do you, or anyone on here, believe that G-d is more immense and wise than the entire Universe? I do believe G-d is, as the creator is always greater than the creation.
So God exists separate from and above His own creation? He is involved, and even "in" the universe, but He also exists ontologically apart from the universe.

I wonder "where" that "place" is, that God exists apart from and above His creation, and if whether or not we should call it "heaven", an otherwise true reality only known and experienced through spectral manifestations and revelation given to us by God???
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  #203  
Old 04-25-2014, 08:56 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.

So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similiar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you
You make some really good points, but still, some things are provable. The afterlife is not one of them. That's what NFS is trying to say.
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  #204  
Old 04-25-2014, 10:16 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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You make some really good points, but still, some things are provable. The afterlife is not one of them. That's what NFS is trying to say.
Well if course it's not. But you have to realize that in the context that most everyday truths we take for granted are not provable either.
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  #205  
Old 04-25-2014, 10:36 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Well if course it's not. But you have to realize that in the context that most everyday truths we take for granted are not provable either.
I think the difference is that we have been told repeatedly that you are going to hell if you do this and heaven if you do that when no one even knows for sure there is a heaven, particularly, as NFS says, the Jews didn't even make the afterlife a focal point. My issue is not the afterlife so much, but I see what NFS is trying to say. End of story is that people shouldn't hold heaven/hell over people's heads and use it as a beating stick. I have seen that a lot in my life. Way too much, in fact.
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  #206  
Old 04-25-2014, 10:51 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Originally Posted by ILG View Post
I think the difference is that we have been told repeatedly that you are going to hell if you do this and heaven if you do that when no one even knows for sure there is a heaven, particularly, as NFS says, the Jews didn't even make the afterlife a focal point. My issue is not the afterlife so much, but I see what NFS is trying to say. End of story is that people shouldn't hold heaven/hell over people's heads and use it as a beating stick. I have seen that a lot in my life. Way too much, in fact.
We know that the Jews believed in an extensive afterlife doctrine by studying the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Zohar, and other rabbinical writings. Their commentary on Gilgul Ha Neshamot (transmigration/reincarnation) is just one example.
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  #207  
Old 04-25-2014, 11:28 AM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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We know that the Jews believed in an extensive afterlife doctrine by studying the Midrash, the Mishnah, the Zohar, and other rabbinical writings. Their commentary on Gilgul Ha Neshamot (transmigration/reincarnation) is just one example.
Well, I'll let NSF argue his own points on that. The bottom line is the afterlife is a belief, not a fact.
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  #208  
Old 04-25-2014, 12:14 PM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

Yes, we will all have to see for ourselves when that day comes....
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  #209  
Old 04-25-2014, 12:41 PM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
Knowledge is such a fickle thing. Can you ever truly know 100% for a fact that your wife never ever cheated on you? You can't! Human knowledge is based primarily on trust. Whether it's trusting your senses or trusting your wife, our knowledge stems from trust. Trust is faith. It's not blind faith, but its still faith. We can't really know anything because at any time our eyes may be playing tricks on us, our wife may be lying to us, or maybe what we thought happened only occured in a dream.

So our knowledge of anything is based on faith and trust. So next time NotForSale asks how do you know there is an afterlife. Politely ask him how he knows his wife hasn't cheated on him. His reasons for believing his wife hasn't cheated on him are pretty similiar to your reasons for believing in an afterlife i assure you
But there's another category of things that can be known. There are many everyday things we interact with and know. Gravity. (That we can "overcome" gravity, as in a plane or rocket, doesn't count. We're talking everyday stuff, here. ) Eating will sustain us; not eating for long enough will kill us. Same for breathing. Love.

We can even know some things that aren't 100% reliable, in a sense. We know a light switch will work, even though it won't, once in a while -- circuit breaker, bulb burned out, etc. Our car will almost always get us where we want to go. We know that these things work under normal circumstances.

But the category of things we can know or not that NfS is talking about is very different. The afterlife is not an everyday thing we deal with in our normal lives. When someone says the know about the afterlife, and give us details of what will happen and what it will be like (even if it's "so wonderful we can't even imagine" or some such), they only "know" it in the sense that they have decided to believe it's true. The only reason they do that is because they can read about it in a book, and the book can do no better than to make assertions and require that the reader accept them.

OK, I guess there's another reason: they feel it's true. Maybe they've had dreams, or they heard voices. They will likely not accept the obvious fact that these things cannot be known to be genuine. To do so would cast doubt on what they want to believe.

Which is fine. I guess. Until these beliefs lead to heartache, fear, and despair. Which they often do. How could they not? Not only can no one actually know (except in the sense above, that they have decided to know) what happens after death in general, they really can't know what specific afterlife they will experience -- did they meet the requirements for a good afterlife? And even, in a way, worse: they can't possibly know whether their loved ones will have a good afterlife. It is not possible, and any honest believer will agree. You have to wonder if your child, say, will spend eternity in hell.

Well, I don't. But "believers" do.
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  #210  
Old 04-25-2014, 02:55 PM
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Re: The Question No One Can Answer

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Originally Posted by Timmy View Post
But there's another category of things that can be known. There are many everyday things we interact with and know. Gravity. (That we can "overcome" gravity, as in a plane or rocket, doesn't count. We're talking everyday stuff, here. ) Eating will sustain us; not eating for long enough will kill us. Same for breathing. Love.

We can even know some things that aren't 100% reliable, in a sense. We know a light switch will work, even though it won't, once in a while -- circuit breaker, bulb burned out, etc. Our car will almost always get us where we want to go. We know that these things work under normal circumstances.

But the category of things we can know or not that NfS is talking about is very different. The afterlife is not an everyday thing we deal with in our normal lives. When someone says the know about the afterlife, and give us details of what will happen and what it will be like (even if it's "so wonderful we can't even imagine" or some such), they only "know" it in the sense that they have decided to believe it's true. The only reason they do that is because they can read about it in a book, and the book can do no better than to make assertions and require that the reader accept them.

OK, I guess there's another reason: they feel it's true. Maybe they've had dreams, or they heard voices. They will likely not accept the obvious fact that these things cannot be known to be genuine. To do so would cast doubt on what they want to believe.

Which is fine. I guess. Until these beliefs lead to heartache, fear, and despair. Which they often do. How could they not? Not only can no one actually know (except in the sense above, that they have decided to know) what happens after death in general, they really can't know what specific afterlife they will experience -- did they meet the requirements for a good afterlife? And even, in a way, worse: they can't possibly know whether their loved ones will have a good afterlife. It is not possible, and any honest believer will agree. You have to wonder if your child, say, will spend eternity in hell.

Well, I don't. But "believers" do.
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