Honest Abe was not so honest??

[crakjak]

Pure nonsense!!!

Lincoln declared all slaves free with the Emancipation Proclamation!!

Still it has taken 150 years for slaves to be mostly free, because of cultural conditioning in both blacks and whites. No way it could have been instantaneously. There are still deep issues that has roots in slavery.
Lincoln wanted to save the union above all else.

Slavery was the great divide, because the North had industry and was very rich, while the South depended on slavery to survive. It was wrong but the South's economy depended on it, so naturally the South opposed any restrictions on the expansion of slavery into the territories. The North was dead set against slavery in any new states.
Lincoln had his hands full, desperate times require desperate actions from leaders, Lincoln succeed in saving the union. Had he not the nation would have likely crumbled, he did what he had to do, in the only ways he knew how.

It has already been said, that to judge him from today's perspective is very unfair, and dismissive of the times, and circumstances.

Slavery was a very thorny issue.

But God had seen the abuse of slaves and heard their cries, it was time for a change, but it was and is at an awesome price. Slavery was truly an abomination.

[Disciple4life]

[QUOTE=easygo;1304706]Was the Civil War necessary?

Absolutely not.

The entire war could have been avoided if Lincoln had not trapped the Confederate army into firing first at Ft. Sumter, thus allowing Lincoln to invade the South illegally. 620,000 soldiers died and as many as 250,000 civilians died in this unnecessary war.

Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Mexico, Bolivia, Uruguay, Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela, and various French colonies all abolished slavery peacefully and by means of compensated emancipation. I guess Lincoln missed the memo.
QUOTE]

People always use the premise that war was justified to keep the union together. If the South was so far politically from the North why would you want them in the Union? North didn't like what they were doing, let them secede and refuse any trade or dealings with the new nation.

The only thing I will say about President Lincoln is that very few people know that him and his friends were making money on the war. Not so different than today and the military industrial complex.

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Disciple4life;1305031]

Originally Posted by easygo

Was the Civil War necessary?

Absolutely not.

The entire war could have been avoided if Lincoln had not trapped the Confederate army into firing first at Ft. Sumter, thus allowing Lincoln to invade the South illegally. 620,000 soldiers died and as many as 250,000 civilians died in this unnecessary war.

Argentina, Colombia, Chile, Mexico, Bolivia, Uruguay, Ecuador, Peru, Venezuela, and various French colonies all abolished slavery peacefully and by means of compensated emancipation. I guess Lincoln missed the memo.
QUOTE]

People always use the premise that war was justified to keep the union together. If the South was so far politically from the North why would you want them in the Union? North didn't like what they were doing, let them secede and refuse any trade or dealings with the new nation.

The only thing I will say about President Lincoln is that very few people know that him and his friends were making money on the war. Not so different than today and the military industrial complex.

To hear you and the Democrats talk ALL is unnecessary! Which is true: IF, IF, IF, IF......! If we didn't have to deal with people the world would be a wonderful place.

Lincoln was making money on the war? I guess that is why he died so rich, and Mary live so lavishly afterward?

Lincoln after freeing all the slaves with the EP, he then codified it in law by pushing thru the 13th amendment.

[Disciple4life]

[QUOTE=crakjak;1306274]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

To hear you and the Democrats talk ALL is unnecessary! Which is true: IF, IF, IF, IF......! If we didn't have to deal with people the world would be a wonderful place.

Lincoln was making money on the war? I guess that is why he died so rich, and Mary live so lavishly afterward?

Lincoln after freeing all the slaves with the EP, he then codified it in law by pushing thru the 13th amendment.

First I am not a Democrat. I was a Republican my whole life. Until I went to Afghanistan. Then I saw with my own eyes that we are not trying to win that war.

We go around the world under the guise of our national interest or helping people. The truth is the minute we stop going to war our economy tanks and Boeing and a bunch of other companies go out of business. After I realized this I became a person who decided to think for my self and not believe the nonsense they push over the media channels.

I am not demonizing President Lincoln. All I am saying is that like many politicians he thought big government had the solution to our problems. In my opinion he had other options that he decided against. One thing I will say about President Lincoln is that we have made him into a god. Nobody is allowed to criticize anything he did. No man is above reproach.

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Disciple4life;1306280]

Originally Posted by crakjak

First I am not a Democrat. I was a Republican my whole life. Until I went to Afghanistan. Then I saw with my own eyes that we are not trying to win that war.

We go around the world under the guise of our national interest or helping people. The truth is the minute we stop going to war our economy tanks and Boeing and a bunch of other companies go out of business. After I realized this I became a person who decided to think for my self and not believe the nonsense they push over the media channels.

I am not demonizing President Lincoln. All I am saying is that like many politicians he thought big government had the solution to our problems. In my opinion he had other options that he decided against. One thing I will say about President Lincoln is that we have made him into a god. Nobody is allowed to criticize anything he did. No man is above reproach.

I understand the heart of your posts, and I hate war with a passion. But we are in a very complicated world, everyone has an agenda in government and out.
I don't look at Lincoln as a god, nor did I accuse of being a Democrat, but I have read the history of Lincoln extensively and I believe he was a flawed human that did what he believed was the best path at the time.
I believe the earth has the resources for every need of humanity, however this world and all of us are flawed. It is our responsibility to run our course in this world and to learn, but it God's world, and His purpose will prevail. I don't understand why this world is so "evil" but I believe it will ultimately serve God's purpose.

[Disciple4life]

Crakjak,
I agree with so much of what you say.

My problem is I see no one on the left or the right disagreeing with the party line. In the past we had a few people saying let's think about our actions before we act rashly.

We don't live in a perfect world. That is why ideas rarely work. Communism doesn't work, Big government doesn't work, No government doesn't work, Crony Capitalism doesn't work. What we have to do is no go too far to extremes. Somewhere in the middle, plus common sense works.

BUT I think we need to hear everybody's opinion. What if the some guy had the cure for cancer but we told him to be quiet? Shhh the president is speaking.

At this point I think I am rambling... Anyway,

Crakjak, God bless.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Disciple4life

Crakjak,
I agree with so much of what you say.

My problem is I see no one on the left or the right disagreeing with the party line. In the past we had a few people saying let's think about our actions before we act rashly.

We don't live in a perfect world. That is why ideas rarely work. Communism doesn't work, Big government doesn't work, No government doesn't work, Crony Capitalism doesn't work. What we have to do is no go too far to extremes. Somewhere in the middle, plus common sense works.

BUT I think we need to hear everybody's opinion. What if the some guy had the cure for cancer but we told him to be quiet? Shhh the president is speaking.

At this point I think I am rambling... Anyway,

Crakjak, God bless.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Pure nonsense!!!

Lincoln declared all slaves free with the Emancipation Proclamation!!

Still it has taken 150 years for slaves to be mostly free, because of cultural conditioning in both blacks and whites. No way it could have been instantaneously. There are still deep issues that has roots in slavery.
Lincoln wanted to save the union above all else.

Slavery was the great divide, because the North had industry and was very rich, while the South depended on slavery to survive. It was wrong but the South's economy depended on it, so naturally the South opposed any restrictions on the expansion of slavery into the territories. The North was dead set against slavery in any new states.
Lincoln had his hands full, desperate times require desperate actions from leaders, Lincoln succeed in saving the union. Had he not the nation would have likely crumbled, he did what he had to do, in the only ways he knew how.

It has already been said, that to judge him from today's perspective is very unfair, and dismissive of the times, and circumstances.

Slavery was a very thorny issue.

But God had seen the abuse of slaves and heard their cries, it was time for a change, but it was and is at an awesome price. Slavery was truly an abomination.

Respectfully, your statement shows that you really do not understand the Emancipation Proclamation.

It only freed slaves in confederate territory that was NOT under Union control. That's right. It did not apply to territory occupied by the Union army, nor did it apply to Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, Maryland, or Delaware. Slaves in those areas mentioned here stayed slaves. Furthermore, even in unoccupied territory, it did not apply to any slave owner that was a Union loyalist.

Furthermore, the southern slave owners had no illusions of setting up a plantation system in the territories. The few slaves that would have gone there would have been the kind that would not have left their masters even if they had been granted freedom. The real reason that the yankees did not want blacks in those territories is because they were racist white supremacists who wanted those lands reserved solely for whites. Think I'm wrong? Laws had already been passed forbidding homesteading by free blacks and guess who supported that legislation? Senator Abraham Lincoln.
Most northern States had laws forbidding the immigration of blacks. After the war blacks could vote in the former confederate states before they could vote in northern States.

Furthermore, the north depended on slavery just as much as the South did. The north sucked up 70 % of all tax revenue that came from the South. The money was in the south. The north was not going to let their cash cow get way and THAT is why they would not let the south go, not over dome moral question of slavery. Had the CSA won its independence, the world's nations that exported goods to North America would have abandoned Yankee ports because of the high tariffs and would have used Confederate ports where tariffs were very low. The north would have gone bankrupt. What we had in 1861-65 was nothing more than am economic/trade war that the winners later cloaked in the moral cause of abolition. Sadly, many people fall for this.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Respectfully, your statement shows that you really do not understand the Emancipation Proclamation.

It only freed slaves in confederate territory that was NOT under Union control. That's right. It did not apply to territory occupied by the Union army, nor did it apply to Kentucky, Missouri, West Virginia, Maryland, or Delaware. Slaves in those areas mentioned here stayed slaves. Furthermore, even in unoccupied territory, it did not apply to any slave owner that was a Union loyalist.

Furthermore, the southern slave owners had no illusions of setting up a plantation system in the territories. The few slaves that would have gone there would have been the kind that would not have left their masters even if they had been granted freedom. The real reason that the yankees did not want blacks in those territories is because they were racist white supremacists who wanted those lands reserved solely for whites. Think I'm wrong? Laws had already been passed forbidding homesteading by free blacks and guess who supported that legislation? Senator Abraham Lincoln.
Most northern States had laws forbidding the immigration of blacks. After the war blacks could vote in the former confederate states before they could vote in northern States.

Furthermore, the north depended on slavery just as much as the South did. The north sucked up 70 % of all tax revenue that came from the South. The money was in the south. The north was not going to let their cash cow get way and THAT is why they would not let the south go, not over dome moral question of slavery. Had the CSA won its independence, the world's nations that exported goods to North America would have abandoned Yankee ports because of the high tariffs and would have used Confederate ports where tariffs were very low. The north would have gone bankrupt. What we had in 1861-65 was nothing more than am economic/trade war that the winners later cloaked in the moral cause of abolition. Sadly, many people fall for this.

Lincoln after freeing all the slaves with the EP, then codified it in law by pushing thru the 13th amendment.
As I said it was a thorny issue, but I believe the 13th being pushed thru by Lincoln proves his desire to abolish slavery.
There were lots of issues among the states, but slavery and preserving the union were top issues for Lincoln. Many folks disagree on the importance of these top issues.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Lincoln after freeing all the slaves with the EP, then codified it in law by pushing thru the 13th amendment.
As I said it was a thorny issue, but I believe the 13th being pushed thru by Lincoln proves his desire to abolish slavery.
There were lots of issues among the states, but slavery and preserving the union were top issues for Lincoln. Many folks disagree on the importance of these top issues.

Sister, the Emacipation proclamation did NOT "free ALL the slaves". And while Lincoln certainly wanted slavery to end, his motive was not that of "racial equality". I presented historical facts to you and you completely ignored them. Thanks to Lincoln, states that once would have had sovereignty on a wide range of issues (health care,definition of marriage, school prayer, energy exploration, education, etc etc) no longer do. But I guess that's OK with you that a zillion injustices were heaped on the States and people so as long as the one injustice of slavery was abolished. The end justifies the means, right?

Furthermore, Lincoln did not "preserve the Union". The union that the Founders created was a voluntary Union between the States. The Union is no longer voluntary. Ultimately a few black robed Marxist judges are the law of land. They get to decide what the Constitution means from day to day, the original intent of the Framers be damned. And they will rubber stamp the edicts and laws passed by politicians whom they agree with ideologically. At one time that States would have simply ignored any unconstitutional law or edict passed. Now the States have a knife to their throat. They have become creatures of the Federal Government instead of creators of the Federal Government. You have Abe Lincoln to thank for getting that ball rolling.

Lincoln destroyed the Union and replaced it with a consolidation.