Dire Prophecies and Good Intentions: 6 Years Later

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by n david

Very rarely, in cases of severe physical or emotional abuse. Not simply due to a screaming preacher on a power trip. If that was the case, 80% of people who've ever been in church would be on a couch describing triggers and their version of PTSD.

So much depends on the person, their circumstances, their upbringing, etc. And preachers can have very lasting effects on their audience both for good and for evil.

There have been preachers who controlled whether or not a member of their congregation attend college, got married, took a particular job, left an abusive spouse, moved to a different town, how and where their children were educated, etc.

There have been preachers who have used the pulpit to bully, slander, accuse, manipulate, and control. You say that a screaming preacher on a power trip can't have that kind of effect? Especially considering the kind of influence he can have over the congregation?

I know people who have been accused of adultery, homosexuality, witchcraft and demonic possession because they questioned something the Pastor said. Who lost friends, family, spouses, children as a result of these things.

You can't constantly remind a "saint" of their need to submit to pastoral authority, and then turn around and say that what the Pastor does with that authority has no impact.

Again, I speak of the worst things that have happened.

In my case, I learned later, that though some of my experiences were bad, it was ultimately how it warped my mind and spirit that did lasting harm. It's not about hurt feelings, or bitterness, it's that it warps your entire spiritual experience.

Like the young girl that is abused by her father may have difficulty knowing what good, pure, enjoyable sexual intimacy is later in life. So we too may find it hard to separate the true and good in God and faith, from the toxic warped false religion we experienced.

[ILG]

Thanks for elaborating on this Mich. I often don't have the stomach to elaborate because then you often have to defend what you elaborated on. Some of us have been through so much and to have to constantly defend myself and others after having been abused adds so much insult to injury. Sometimes people go off because they just don't understand but often, they aren't listening real well either.

[RandyWayne]

Like the young girl that is abused by her father may have difficulty knowing what good, pure, enjoyable sexual intimacy is later in life. So we too may find it hard to separate the true and good in God and faith, from the toxic warped false religion we experienced.

That is actually a very good analogy for my current (and going on 25 years) distaste for classic "church".

[ILG]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

That is actually a very good analogy for my current (and going on 25 years) distaste for classic "church".

I can experience the beautiful and true presence of God, but only when alone and only for brief periods before I get scared and retreat.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

So much depends on the person, their circumstances, their upbringing, etc. And preachers can have very lasting effects on their audience both for good and for evil.

There have been preachers who controlled whether or not a member of their congregation attend college, got married, took a particular job, left an abusive spouse, moved to a different town, how and where their children were educated, etc.

I would argue that the bolded would not not cause PTSD. It may upset some people, and in some cases rightly so, but to say that this would cause PTSD is lessening real cases of PTSD.

I served, briefly, under a couple Pastors who exhibited this type of behavior. They would counsel against people moving away for a career or even marriage. They would demand people reschedule their vacations if it fell over a Easter, Pentecost Sunday, revival services or other special events. And if they didn't, as in one case, the Pastor literally screamed at a family in the back of the church. The family didn't stay for that service, but they continued to go to that church. They told me they didn't come for the Pastor, but to worship God, and the Pastor's outburst, while it upset them, didn't change their feelings towards the others in the church, or for the church itself.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

There have been preachers who have used the pulpit to bully, slander, accuse, manipulate, and control. You say that a screaming preacher on a power trip can't have that kind of effect? Especially considering the kind of influence he can have over the congregation?

I know people who have been accused of adultery, homosexuality, witchcraft and demonic possession because they questioned something the Pastor said. Who lost friends, family, spouses, children as a result of these things.

You said earlier that it depends on the person, which is true. People respond in different ways. I know many people who have, like me, left the UPC. People who went through things like what is in bold above. They had pain for a while, no doubt about it, but they never stopped going to a church, never stopped believing in God or being involved in the work of God.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

You can't constantly remind a "saint" of their need to submit to pastoral authority, and then turn around and say that what the Pastor does with that authority has no impact.

Again, I speak of the worst things that have happened.

Again, I would argue that to claim PTSD over something like this trivializes PTSD.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

In my case, I learned later, that though some of my experiences were bad, it was ultimately how it warped my mind and spirit that did lasting harm. It's not about hurt feelings, or bitterness, it's that it warps your entire spiritual experience.

Like the young girl that is abused by her father may have difficulty knowing what good, pure, enjoyable sexual intimacy is later in life. So we too may find it hard to separate the true and good in God and faith, from the toxic warped false religion we experienced.

Respectfully, I would disagree with this comparison, because it cheapens the real physical and emotional abuse that would result from a young girl being abused by her father. There's no comparison between that kind of abuse and the fallout from it, and what has been described in the rest of the posts above.

Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) is a mental health problem that can occur after someone goes through a traumatic event like war, assault, or disaster.

Posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can occur after you have been through a traumatic event. A traumatic event is something terrible and scary that you see, hear about, or that happens to you, like:

• Combat exposure
• Child sexual or physical abuse
• Terrorist attack
• Sexual or physical assault
• Serious accidents, like a car wreck
• Natural disasters, like a fire, tornado, hurricane, flood, or earthquake

LINK

I just don't see, except in the very rare cases of severe physical abuse or some cases of emotional abuse, that what's written here qualifies as clinical PTSD.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by ILG

Thanks for elaborating on this Mich. I often don't have the stomach to elaborate because then you often have to defend what you elaborated on. Some of us have been through so much and to have to constantly defend myself and others after having been abused adds so much insult to injury. Sometimes people go off because they just don't understand but often, they aren't listening real well either.

No problem

I actually take comfort in the fact that some people can't believe that spiritual abuse exists, because then I can believe than I can rejoice that it is not as rampant as my experience would suggest.

I was actually kind of careful, because I was real open about saying that I am living trigger free (that usually makes one rear up just to show you not to get to cocky), so I didn't attempt to use any examples of anything that had actually happened to me. Because it is a truly horrible thing to not only experience some kind of abuse, but then to have those experiences invalidated. (Abusers know how demeaning that is, and they use it to their advantage "If you tell, no one will believe you, and I'll say it was your fault").

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by n david

I would argue that the bolded would not not cause PTSD. It may upset some people, and in some cases rightly so, but to say that this would cause PTSD is lessening real cases of PTSD.

I served, briefly, under a couple Pastors who exhibited this type of behavior. They would counsel against people moving away for a career or even marriage. They would demand people reschedule their vacations if it fell over a Easter, Pentecost Sunday, revival services or other special events. And if they didn't, as in one case, the Pastor literally screamed at a family in the back of the church. The family didn't stay for that service, but they continued to go to that church. They told me they didn't come for the Pastor, but to worship God, and the Pastor's outburst, while it upset them, didn't change their feelings towards the others in the church, or for the church itself.


You said earlier that it depends on the person, which is true. People respond in different ways. I know many people who have, like me, left the UPC. People who went through things like what is in bold above. They had pain for a while, no doubt about it, but they never stopped going to a church, never stopped believing in God or being involved in the work of God.


Again, I would argue that to claim PTSD over something like this trivializes PTSD.


Respectfully, I would disagree with this comparison, because it cheapens the real physical and emotional abuse that would result from a young girl being abused by her father. There's no comparison between that kind of abuse and the fallout from it, and what has been described in the rest of the posts above.





LINK

I just don't see, except in the very rare cases of severe physical abuse or some cases of emotional abuse, that what's written here qualifies as clinical PTSD.

I want to say for the record, that I never used the term PTSD, though I did refer to having "triggers", or things that would suddenly bring me back to the same emotions, fear, confusion and distress that I had previously experienced.

I did suffer severely from bad anxiety & panic attacks, and for a time needed to be medicated. (in the interest of full disclosure I will say that this is something that runs strongly on my maternal side of the family...Mom, Sister, Brother, Aunt, Grandmother, 2 nephews and a few cousins, so I most likely have a predisposition)

In my case, I was an adult, but young (23) when I first attended a UPC church (I attended 3, over the course of 3 years, but the first was the really bad one). I had been raised in a non-religious home. My Dad was a lapsed Christian Scientist, and my step-mom was a church going, but liberal Catholic. I didn't know anything about God, Jesus, or the Bible.

When I say that the first church was bad, I don't mean that I thought it was bad, I can say that nearly every person that attended the church when I did eventually left it. Many ended up at other UPC churches, many left the UPC (but not Christianity), and some ended up like me.

Because this church built the foundation of my "religion", I grew crooked. (If you have a chance, please go read what I posted on the "Mich has nothing to say thread" this morning). My foundation was flawed. In my case, it didn't help that due to an Alcoholic Authoritarian Controlling Father, that I was already predisposed to think that God/Authority was SUPPOSED to be controlling and manipulative.

Others with a healthy childhood, might have seen warning signs, but I didn't, and so my entire spiritual foundation was built upon flawed premises, twisted scriptures, and faulty doctrines.

To be honest, I think God tried to protect me. But I so believed in submitting to my authority that I attributed God's voice to satan. That more than anything is my biggest regret, the realization of how many times I denied God because what I was hearing didn't fit into the box of my preconceived notions. (Kind of like the Pharisees thinking Jesus was a son of hell)

[Dichotomy Girl]

BTW, ILG we have the same signature. We'll kind of. I chose a different one for DG, but you have the same Signature as Michlow. (Am I starting to sound schizophrenic?)

[n david]

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

I want to say for the record, that I never used the term PTSD, though I did refer to having "triggers", or things that would suddenly bring me back to the same emotions, fear, confusion and distress that I had previously experienced.

Originally Posted by Dichotomy Girl

Sometime in 2012, I realized that I could hear scriptures, or music, and no long have any of those PTSD-esque trigger responses.

I do see it was written as "PTSD-esque" and referred to the trigger responses. From that we got other posts that talked about PTSD and that's when I commented.

There is no doubt that religion has cause a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. It has for me. But how we overcome that, IMO, is relative to the depth and strength of our foundation. I was raised in church; born and bred in the UPC. So my foundation was stronger than someone who wasn't raised in church and had to experience hurt and pain in church. That isn't to boast by any means. I'm not saying I was more spiritual, quite the opposite at times; just that I had more good experiences/memories/lessons that helped me get past the bad.

[Dichotomy Girl]

Originally Posted by n david

I do see it was written as "PTSD-esque" and referred to the trigger responses. From that we got other posts that talked about PTSD and that's when I commented.

There is no doubt that religion has cause a lot of hurt and a lot of pain. It has for me. But how we overcome that, IMO, is relative to the depth and strength of our foundation. I was raised in church; born and bred in the UPC. So my foundation was stronger than someone who wasn't raised in church and had to experience hurt and pain in church. That isn't to boast by any means. I'm not saying I was more spiritual, quite the opposite at times; just that I had more good experiences/memories/lessons that helped me get past the bad.

Exactly, the bad experiences in your case were not intertwined with God and Faith in general, and hence easier to separate. Once of the reasons that I left, was because I was unable to make a distinction. I got to the point where I thought that either God is this horrible terrible being, and I have no interest in serving Him, or I had no idea who He was. In either case, I didn't feel like it could be sorted in the place where I was.

And that is why in the past 6 months or so I have felt that because I am free of the difficulties of the past, I am in a place where I will be able to distinguish.