Saved vs striving to be saved??

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The highest ethic of holiness is love. After all, God IS love with regards to His very essence. We are to have a love for God. And demonstrate that love through loving others as one's self. If we do that... we have the very principles of the entire law covered.

God cares about how we treat one another. God doesn't care about things like mixed fabrics or if we eat a ham sandwich or not. Let us not major in minors.

When we stand before God to be judged... we will be judged with regards as to if we had truly loved as we should have. And only Jesus demonstrates the kind of love God intends us to have. Jesus is the way of love. The process of becoming increasingly like Jesus through a spiritual oneness with Him is sanctification. It's a life long process. And we do well to remember that and approach it with great patience and introspection.

As if ANYONE on the forum ever condemned anyone for mixing fabrics or eating a ham sandwhich.

Love does not EXCLUDE keeping commandments, denying self, and obedience. These are all part of the whole counsel of God.

[Michael The Disciple]

When Christ quoted the Shema heres what he was quoting from.

4 Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down , and when thou risest up . 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

So altho the commands are not always the same YHWH was not just talking about a feeling of affection.

As in the New Testament Yeshua sees that if one takes no heed to do his will he really does not love him.

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep , and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose , the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth , and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently , and immediately it fell ; and the ruin of that house was great. Luke 6:46-49

Commands given by the Lord are serious business to HIM. And to those who call him "Lord".

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

As if ANYONE on the forum ever condemned anyone for mixing fabrics or eating a ham sandwhich.

Love does not EXCLUDE keeping commandments, denying self, and obedience. These are all part of the whole counsel of God.

So, do you keep the Sabbath as the law demands??? Yes or no?

If not, according to your own logic... you can't claim to love God.

Would you marry your brother's widow, should he die, and sire children in his name... even though you might already be married??? Yes or no?

If not, according to your own logic... you can't claim to even love your brother.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

When Christ quoted the Shema heres what he was quoting from.

4 Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: 5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down , and when thou risest up . 8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

So altho the commands are not always the same YHWH was not just talking about a feeling of affection.

As in the New Testament Yeshua sees that if one takes no heed to do his will he really does not love him.

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say ? 47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: 48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep , and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose , the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. 49 But he that heareth , and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently , and immediately it fell ; and the ruin of that house was great. Luke 6:46-49

Commands given by the Lord are serious business to HIM. And to those who call him "Lord".

Matthew 22:36-40
King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Romans 13:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

So altho the commands are not always the same YHWH was not just talking about a feeling of affection.

Ah... there's part of the problem. You think "love" is just a feeling of affection. Not the kind of love I'm talking about. It's far far deeper. It's not eros (erotic love). It's not phileo (a kinship or brotherly love). It's not storgay (family love). It's agape. Agape is the pure self sacrificing, giving, unconditional kind of love. It surrenders the entire will of self to prefer it's beloved.

What does James say about God's law?

"If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself,' you do well; " (James 2:8)

Michael... it's all about love. If you hold back the slightest bit of love for any reason (including love towards those who are unbelievers or carnal saints and the "unloveable")... you haven't entered agape.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

As if ANYONE on the forum ever condemned anyone for mixing fabrics or eating a ham sandwhich.

If one believes that a person must keep any part of the law... they must keep the WHOLE law. That includes laws regarding fabrics and ham sandwhiches. One can't arbitrarily pick and choose commandments out of God's law.

Now, those who have finally grasped the riches of grace realize... the entire law fulfilled. Now we are bound by the law of love.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

While i agree that we as christians retain our carnal/fleshly nature after we are saved where does the bible ever say that we must retain it all of our life?

Also where does the bible call sanctification a process instead of an act?

Every time it encourages us to grow in grace and sanctification it presupposes that the carnal nature is still with us and in need of being overcome daily. If said carnal nature were to ever be absolutely vanquished we’d need no such admonishments, we’d live sinless lives by nature, as easily as a fish breathes in water. The notion that we can absolutely eradicate the carnal nature in our flesh while still alive on earth in these unglorified bodies asserts the idea that we can become beings of sinless perfection in the here and now. Much like with Buddhism, Buddhists can achieve nirvana and indeed become a Buddha in this life. When Scripture speaks of “growing in grace”, “sanctify” (as a command), and us one day being “like him” (Jesus); it is speaking to a future reality that will be realized at our glorification (the Rapture).

Why must we ever be defeated in our christian journey?

It depends on how one defines “defeated”. Are we defeated because we have chosen to be hidden in Christ, with all our imperfections and baggage? No. In fact, we are protected and sheltered in the Victorious One. We find our victory… in Christ. In who He is. In what He did. We can’t boast about our performance and claim “victory”, because even on our best day we are infinitely below the standard of holiness God demands without the works of atonement and propitiation of Christ. Our victory is in Him. Not our performance. We are to fight the good fight of faith. We must maintain faith in spite of every weapon of Hell designed to destroy our faith through guilt, shame, condemnation, doubt, and lying signs and wonders. The moment we begin flexing our own muscle thinking that we’re performing well… we’re walking away from what Christ did for us. We must live our entire life in the shadow of the cross. In this… we are victorious. In this… we are under the blood. Satan HATES the blood. It covers, cleanses, purifies, and atones. It stands as a covering for the most vile and wretched of sinners who are willing to admit their absolute helplessness and confess that they are sinners by nature.

Without this understanding victory has to be defined in accordance to performance. That demands rules. And everyone you talk to has a different list of rules. And this goes to show us how arbitrary and subjective legalism and the notion of performance based salvation truly is. It's shifting sand, because it changes depending upon who you talk to. For example, the first church I attended said that beards, short sleeves, shorts, pants on women, wedding bands, and television would send a person to hell. The second church I attended said we could wear wedding bands, short sleeves, and own a television. It's all so subjective. Performance based religion keeps one bound to the ideas of mere men. Grace binds you to love, confession, realization of your fallen condition and need for a Saviour, and surrender to God's own love.

[Nitehawk013]

Correct me if I am wrong, but are there not 3 commonly used Greek words for "saved", one of which does indeed mean we are currently being saved or as the title says, striving to be saved?

[Luke]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Every time it encourages us to grow in grace and sanctification it presupposes that the carnal nature is still with us and in need of being overcome daily. If said carnal nature were to ever be absolutely vanquished we’d need no such admonishments, we’d live sinless lives by nature, as easily as a fish breathes in water. The notion that we can absolutely eradicate the carnal nature in our flesh while still alive on earth in these unglorified bodies asserts the idea that we can become beings of sinless perfection in the here and now. Much like with Buddhism, Buddhists can achieve nirvana and indeed become a Buddha in this life. When Scripture speaks of “growing in grace”, “sanctify” (as a command), and us one day being “like him” (Jesus); it is speaking to a future reality that will be realized at our glorification (the Rapture).



It depends on how one defines “defeated”. Are we defeated because we have chosen to be hidden in Christ, with all our imperfections and baggage? No. In fact, we are protected and sheltered in the Victorious One. We find our victory… in Christ. In who He is. In what He did. We can’t boast about our performance and claim “victory”, because even on our best day we are infinitely below the standard of holiness God demands without the works of atonement and propitiation of Christ. Our victory is in Him. Not our performance. We are to fight the good fight of faith. We must maintain faith in spite of every weapon of Hell designed to destroy our faith through guilt, shame, condemnation, doubt, and lying signs and wonders. The moment we begin flexing our own muscle thinking that we’re performing well… we’re walking away from what Christ did for us. We must live our entire life in the shadow of the cross. In this… we are victorious. In this… we are under the blood. Satan HATES the blood. It covers, cleanses, purifies, and atones. It stands as a covering for the most vile and wretched of sinners who are willing to admit their absolute helplessness and confess that they are sinners by nature.

Without this understanding victory has to be defined in accordance to performance. That demands rules. And everyone you talk to has a different list of rules. And this goes to show us how arbitrary and subjective legalism and the notion of performance based salvation truly is. It's shifting sand, because it changes depending upon who you talk to. For example, the first church I attended said that beards, short sleeves, shorts, pants on women, wedding bands, and television would send a person to hell. The second church I attended said we could wear wedding bands, short sleeves, and own a television. It's all so subjective. Performance based religion keeps one bound to the ideas of mere men. Grace binds you to love, confession, realization of your fallen condition and need for a Saviour, and surrender to God's own love.

I know where the Bible says to grow in grace but where does it ever say to grow in sanctification?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Luke

I know where the Bible says to grow in grace but where does it ever say to grow in sanctification?

There are many verses such as this one:

2 Tim 2:21
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. (KJV)

... and this one...

Eph 5:25-27
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. (KJV)

Sanctification is a process. Initial sanctification takes place when one is born again. However, we are to continue and grow in sanctification throughout our lives. The process ends at death. For those living at the time of Christ's coming it will end with the rapture. The final result for all believers is glorification.

[Aquila]

If our fallen nature is eradicated as soon as we are born again... we'd never sin. It wouldn't be part of our nature any more.

The truth is, when we are born again our "spirit" (the inner man) is sanctified and holy, in union with God through the indwelling Holy Spirit (regeneration). However, the "soul" (mind, will, and emotions) is not regenerated (yet) and must be sanctified through the Word of God, therewith putting on the "mind of Christ". The body is also unregenerated and has fallen impulses and desires. As we renew our minds (sanctification of the soul) we discipline our bodies (sanctification of the body) we abstain from sin as much as possible. Guilt, shame, uneasiness, depression, etc. all come about when we continue in sin. Why? Because we are thinking or behaving in a manner that is alien to the new nature of our regenerated human spirit.

At the resurrection/rapture we'll be changed. Suddenly the soul (mind) will be delivered from all imperfections of thought, will, and emotion. In addition, the body will be changed and no longer be driven by sinful tendencies or desires. We'll be... like Him (Jesus). That's glorification.