Zionism And American Politics.

[bbyrd009]

Ah, I went to Israel in 2010, and had a great time; and found out Israeli is not Jewish.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

So...you don't like the Jewish point of view? Wikipedia is not an authoritative or a reliable site for accurate information. Much of it's information is watered down. You would rather assimilate a watered-down website with just general information on the Jewish state than to take the strong medicine that the Jewish people are trying to educate the world with? If this was a true jewish state, they would not have a secular government. They would have a jewish government that followed the Torah laws for this is what the Jews believe. If you want to know about zionism and current events bad enough, you would not be asking me to tell you how this thread relates, you would be doing your own research to see how it all ties in together.

Don't give me the terrible example of the "n" word in relation to Jews. Zionists are NOT referring to Jews in any way, shape or form, yet you refuse to open your eyes to what the Jewish people are trying to tell you.

If you want to think that zionist and jew are one and the same, then you are willfully ignorant. That is not an implication...it is an observation.

Funny. Let me post you a link that I ran across, just now. And I wasn't even doing "research" just came across it while catching up on the days news.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd7_1326994400

Now, let's get down to your defintion of "Zionist".
I think that is what is comes down to.
So what is your definition?

I do not believe SH's definition was right and I do go with the wikipedia definition.
So what is yours?

Believe me almost the entire Muslim world uses the words "Zionist" and "Jew" synonymously.
That's their definition.
And this entire topic is usually fed by those who believe that there is either a secret Jewish/Zionist conspiracy to take over the world or the Jewish/Zionist conspiracy has taken over the world.
Do you subscribe to either of those beliefs?

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Funny. Let me post you a link that I ran across, just now. And I wasn't even doing "research" just came across it while catching up on the days news.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fd7_1326994400

Well, for decades the media has used the term Jews/Zionists synonymously when referring to semites. This is conditioning to the people that when they hear the word "Zionist", they automatically think "Jew".

This website you linked refers to the Talmud. The Talmud is not the same as the Torah, which was given to Moses by God.


The Talmud is a "complementary" book of the Torah, one source says. But in Parts I & II you can clearly see that the pharisaical rules hate the Christian and added it to the law of their books.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

Remember in the OT, the Kings of the tribes frequently failed the Lord and went whoring after other baal, molech and other gods. Makes me wonder how many of these put their two cents in about the oral tradition. But since a good bit of this is about hating christians, much of this must have been written after Christ died, buried and resurrected in an effort to try to stamp out all reference to Christ. The Talmud clearly is not God-given scripture.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Now, let's get down to your defintion of "Zionist". d
I think that is what is comes down to.
So what is your definition?

I do not believe SH's definition was right and I do go with the wikipedia definition.
So what is yours?

I told ya. I stand with the Jews. This is what they say:


What is Zionism?


Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

Today there is much confusion among Jews over the meaning of the term Zionism. It means different things to different people.

The reason for this is that historically, Zionism has been a movement dominated by secularist Jews. Herzl and most of his colleagues were assimilated Jews, who did not believe in or practice the Torah. Some Zionists were vehemently anti-religious, and saw the Torah and mitzvos as outdated rituals with no place in their modern state.

Yet the essence of the Zionist idea - that Jews should return to the Holy Land and establish a government - is not inherently secular, and in fact the Zionist movement had some religious members from the very beginning.

Some Jews today use Zionism as a synonym for Israeli secularism, and thus support the State of Israel while claiming to be anti-Zionist. These people's only complaint about the State of Israel is that it is not religious enough. They hope for the day when the state will be dominated by the religious parties.

But this is not the meaning of the term Zionism as used on this site. When we talk about Zionism here, we are refering to the concept that Jews should rise up, emancipate themselves from exile without waiting for the messiah, and establish a Jewish government in the Holy Land. Using Jewish texts, we demonstrate that this concept is against the Torah and has been opposed by rabbis in all generations.

There have been hundreds of rabbis over the past century who spoke out against the Zionist movement. But because of the ambiguity of the term, it is not always possible to prove that a given rabbi meant to oppose the concept of Zionism, rather than just secularism. For this reason, religious Zionists often make the claim that much rabbinic opposition to Zionism was only because it was a secular movement. On the "Rabbinic Quotations" section of this site, we have avoided this confusion by carefully selecting those quotations that are clearly against the concept of Zionism itself. As the reader will see, these quotations alone are enough proof that almost all of the greatest sages and leaders of the Jewish people opposed the establishment of a Jewish state.

In addition, the zionist movement is more of a political, rather than religious system.

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Believe me almost the entire Muslim world uses the words "Zionist" and "Jew" synonymously.
That's their definition.
And this entire topic is usually fed by those who believe that there is either a secret Jewish/Zionist conspiracy to take over the world or the Jewish/Zionist conspiracy has taken over the world.
Do you subscribe to either of those beliefs?

You can speak for the entire Muslim world? You got more power than our government does then. Perhaps the media reports that the muslims use the words Zionist and Jews synonymously is a result of conditioning like here in the western nations.

Not everybody who studies the zionist movement believes that there is an actual conspiracy taking place. I would have to have more evidence to form an educated opinion about the matter. I do know that as long as people do not separate the political system (zionism) from the religious system (Torah), then they will never be able to understand what the Jewish people are trying to convey when they put their writings online.

BTW, the Jewish authors have put a new and current website up:

http://www.truetorahjews.org/

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Well, for decades the media has used the term Jews/Zionists synonymously when referring to semites. This is conditioning to the people that when they hear the word "Zionist", they automatically think "Jew".

This website you linked refers to the Talmud. The Talmud is not the same as the Torah, which was given to Moses by God.


The Talmud is a "complementary" book of the Torah, one source says. But in Parts I & II you can clearly see that the pharisaical rules hate the Christian and added it to the law of their books.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

Remember in the OT, the Kings of the tribes frequently failed the Lord and went whoring after other baal, molech and other gods. Makes me wonder how many of these put their two cents in about the oral tradition. But since a good bit of this is about hating christians, much of this must have been written after Christ died, buried and resurrected in an effort to try to stamp out all reference to Christ. The Talmud clearly is not God-given scripture.




I told ya. I stand with the Jews. This is what they say:


What is Zionism?


Zionism is a movement founded by Theodor Herzl in 1896 whose goal is the return of Jews to Eretz Yisrael, or Zion, the Jewish synonym for Jerusalem and the Land of Israel.

The name of "Zionism" comes from the hill Zion, the hill on which the Temple of Jerusalem was situated.

Supporters of this movement are called "Zionists".

Today there is much confusion among Jews over the meaning of the term Zionism. It means different things to different people.

The reason for this is that historically, Zionism has been a movement dominated by secularist Jews. Herzl and most of his colleagues were assimilated Jews, who did not believe in or practice the Torah. Some Zionists were vehemently anti-religious, and saw the Torah and mitzvos as outdated rituals with no place in their modern state.

Yet the essence of the Zionist idea - that Jews should return to the Holy Land and establish a government - is not inherently secular, and in fact the Zionist movement had some religious members from the very beginning.

Some Jews today use Zionism as a synonym for Israeli secularism, and thus support the State of Israel while claiming to be anti-Zionist. These people's only complaint about the State of Israel is that it is not religious enough. They hope for the day when the state will be dominated by the religious parties.

But this is not the meaning of the term Zionism as used on this site. When we talk about Zionism here, we are refering to the concept that Jews should rise up, emancipate themselves from exile without waiting for the messiah, and establish a Jewish government in the Holy Land. Using Jewish texts, we demonstrate that this concept is against the Torah and has been opposed by rabbis in all generations.

There have been hundreds of rabbis over the past century who spoke out against the Zionist movement. But because of the ambiguity of the term, it is not always possible to prove that a given rabbi meant to oppose the concept of Zionism, rather than just secularism. For this reason, religious Zionists often make the claim that much rabbinic opposition to Zionism was only because it was a secular movement. On the "Rabbinic Quotations" section of this site, we have avoided this confusion by carefully selecting those quotations that are clearly against the concept of Zionism itself. As the reader will see, these quotations alone are enough proof that almost all of the greatest sages and leaders of the Jewish people opposed the establishment of a Jewish state.

In addition, the zionist movement is more of a political, rather than religious system.



You can speak for the entire Muslim world? You got more power than our government does then. Perhaps the media reports that the muslims use the words Zionist and Jews synonymously is a result of conditioning like here in the western nations.

Not everybody who studies the zionist movement believes that there is an actual conspiracy taking place. I would have to have more evidence to form an educated opinion about the matter. I do know that as long as people do not separate the political system (zionism) from the religious system (Torah), then they will never be able to understand what the Jewish people are trying to convey when they put their writings online.

BTW, the Jewish authors have put a new and current website up:

http://www.truetorahjews.org/

Nice dodge there at the end.
You want me to educate myself, but you do not have an opinion about a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy?
Forgive me if I do not believe that you have no opinion.
Your reluctance to voice an opinion tells me all I need to know.

And by the way, 30 years ago, (when I was a teenager), I knew Jews who believed the state of Israel was an abomination.
So, this is not anything new.
A couple of other things. You state that this website you have found speaks for all the Jews, yet deny that I can know how the Muslim world speaks regarding Jews/Zionists?
I have worked with and had Muslims working for me for over 25 years. I think I have a fairly good take on how they think.
It's probably a little longer than you have been reading that website.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Nice dodge there at the end.
You want me to educate myself, but you do not have an opinion about a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy?
Forgive me if I do not believe that you have no opinion.
Your reluctance to voice an opinion tells me all I need to know.

And by the way, 30 years ago, (when I was a teenager), I knew Jews who believed the state of Israel was an abomination.
So, this is not anything new.
A couple of other things. You state that this website you have found speaks for all the Jews, yet deny that I can know how the Muslim world speaks regarding Jews/Zionists?
I have worked with and had Muslims working for me for over 25 years. I think I have a fairly good take on how they think.
It's probably a little longer than you have been reading that website.

Reading websites are not evidence of any conspiracy my friend. I said I want to form an educated opinion. I did not say I do not have an opinion. And I do not have to voice my personal opinion just because you ask for it. For the time being I will continue to read, study and research what is going on in the world. Do you think that conspiracies are going to be wide out there open to the public? Nah.. It's people like you who call others "conspiracy theorists" no matter what I might say. I am not going to fall into your trap. When true evidence comes out about this, then I will give you my opinion. It is all in the matter of how current events will soon play out.

For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

(Mark 4:22)

You said:

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Believe me almost the entire Muslim world uses the words "Zionist" and "Jew" synonymously.
That's their definition.

That leads me to believe that you have personal knowledge that the entire muslim world thinks that zionists and jews are one and the same. And because you have worked with a few, all of those Muslims believe it to be so .. all of the muslim world must believe it. Your muslim friends may be badly misinformed like many of the peoples of the world.

We here in the USA hear about the Muslims blowing themselves up along with "infidels" so that they can go to paradise and have 70 virgins. Do we all believe it? Do they?

But to be fair, I can understand where you are coming from when I posted the website written by Jews. However, I would rather take their point of view than wikipedia's general unreliable information. And I never said that the website speaks for the entire Jewish community like you said that almost the entire Muslim world uses the names synonymously.

All this blather is neither here, nor there. Have you read any of the site? Or just a bit of what I put on here.

Don't stray from the fact that (political) Zionists and (Torah) Jews are not the same. Vice President Biden said one can be a zionist without being a jew. That is just a small piece of evidence of this puzzle.

[AreYouReady?]

Oh and you do a little dodging yourself my friend. You haven't mentioned your opinion or refuted anything that the Jewish website has to say about Zionism.

[Scott Hutchinson]

I took a stab at a definition which probably wasn't the best way to explain things.
I don't look look for demons under every bush,but there is alot to consider on this topic.

[bbyrd009]

So what I'm getting here is that a def of Zionism is pretty much like a def of Christianity or something, hopelessly fractured in a sense, surely including good and bad elements, locked in a war, shall I say.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Prax come to your own conclusions.

I see. So we can just ignore history and. Invent our own paranoid version of it? Or just invent our own definitio. The above was not my conclusion. Its a historical fact

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

Oh and you do a little dodging yourself my friend. You haven't mentioned your opinion or refuted anything that the Jewish website has to say about Zionism.

My opinion?
Those who believe in a Jewish/Zionist conspiracy are usually kooks.

And touting what a Jewish website says about Zionism is like someone finding a KKK website put out by Americans and trying to use it to say it represents the American viewpoint.

My opinion?
My good opinion of SH has taken a blow, due to his apparent espousing of these views.

My opinion?
You probably believe the moon landing was fake, that 9/11 was an inside job and BHO is a muslim.