Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


View Poll Results: Do You Believe in Women Preachers?
Yes 128 62.75%
No 55 26.96%
Don't Care 21 10.29%
Voters: 204. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1661  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:13 AM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
Philip had four daughters who were prophets (Acts 21:9).
Text says no such thing! Can't just make-up your own Bible Sis....respectfully.
Reply With Quote
  #1662  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:15 AM
jfrog's Avatar
jfrog jfrog is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,001
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
A greeting is not equivolent to God's order of creation & the violation there-of. "For Adam was FIRST formed, THEN Eve."

And, I HAVE done this before [as well as many I know]...did it say to do it "everytime":_____________? Nope! So, your silly "Kis" argument is moot in my case. And YES, I have said publically that we should be doing this still! Next.....
rdp do you believe that women are inherently more likely to be deceived than men?
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Reply With Quote
  #1663  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:16 AM
jfrog's Avatar
jfrog jfrog is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,001
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
jfrog...I don't even take you seriously! Learn to obey I Tim. 2:11-15, imstead of explaining it away...then talk to me about "consistency"!
that's good rdp, because I don't take you seriously either...
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Reply With Quote
  #1664  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:16 AM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Alvear View Post
According to Douglas Moo, the UBS4 and NA27 Greek New Testatments cite "Junia" as a variant reading.13 This variant reading is attested to by Codexes Sinaiticus (a), A, B*,C, D*, F,G, P. The GNT also cites "Julia" as a variant reading. Support for this female name is evidenced by P46, 6, itar,b, vgmss, copbo, eth, and Church Father, Jerome.

According to many scholars, Junia was a common name that appeared in Greek and Latin inscriptions and literature. Brooten states, "the female Latin name Junia occurs over 250 times among inscriptions from ancient Rome alone."14 Peter Lampe has also discovered over 250 examples of the female name Junia.15 Bruce Metzer, editor of the GNT, likewise agrees that Junia is well attested to in ancient literature.

a. Discussion. Support for a female named Julia is evidenced by P46, a papyrus manuscript, dating from around a.d. 200. This papyrus represents the earliest known and most reliable testimony in support of Julia. The 3rd century Coptic, 4th century Vulgate, and fifth century Latin versions provide additional early support for this female name. These early manuscripts clearly support a female named "Julia." Junia, the other variant reading, is supported by the earliest known manuscripts available. Sinaiticus dates from the fourth century and is earliest surviving complete copy of the Greek New Testament.16 Codexes A, B, C, D date from the 4th to 5th century and represent a broad spectrum of "text types." These early witnesses, by themselves, do not clearly reveal how an unaccented Iounian should be translated. The cumulative evidence provided by other ancient manuscripts, the existence of "Junia" as a common name in ancient times, and the lack of any evidence for "Junias" cannot be ignored. It is not unreasonable to state, as Moo does, that these early witnesses attest to "Junia."

b. Assessment. The quality and age of the above manuscripts provide strong support for a female name whether it be rendered "Julia" or "Junia." The research from many different scholars clearly support that a female named Junia occurred frequently in ancient writings.
How amazing! I'm reading a book by Douglas Moo in which he destroys the notion of women in the 5-fold NT ministry! I've also interacted w/ him & daniel Wallace via email in which they dealt extensively w/ I Tim. 2:11-15 destroying the notion that this is referring to the "Home environment". Yes...I still have the emails! Try again!
Reply With Quote
  #1665  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:17 AM
rdp rdp is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,667
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
that's good rdp, because I don't take you seriously either...
Very good----we finally agree! Oh & I know many, many who believe the same way I do. Very scholarly men too...........but keep down the path of wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction.
Reply With Quote
  #1666  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:21 AM
jfrog's Avatar
jfrog jfrog is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,001
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
Very good----we finally agree! Oh & I know many, many who believe the same way I do. Very scholarly men too...........but keep down the path of wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction.
That sounds kinda like the teen dilemma. "I'm a doing everything right because I'm just like all the other people in my youth group". Well, it may actually be true that you and your whole group are right... but just because a bunch of people agree with you doesn't make it so.
__________________
You better watch out before I blitzkrieg your thread cause I'm the Thread Nazi now!
Reply With Quote
  #1667  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:35 AM
Sister Alvear's Avatar
Sister Alvear Sister Alvear is offline
Sister Alvear


 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Brazil, SA
Posts: 27,040
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

here is a look at different veiws:
Junia's gender

That she was a woman is seldom contested today among Christian theologians.[11] Considering the cultural climate of a time when women were treated as minor children with no legal or property rights, U.S. journalist Rena Pederson thinks it understandable that Junia's role was ignored or even hidden for centuries since medieval scholars changed her name to Junias to make it masculine. She opines that the growing acknowledgment of Junia's female apostleship will establish an important precedent for women preaching and teaching. "And since Paul often has been viewed as someone who wanted to keep women quiet, his praise for Junia seems to show that he was much more broadminded in practice," Pederson adds.
Stephen Finlan notes that Junia is recognized as “the only female apostle named in the NT.”[13] He writes that Junia is clearly a female name that was changed to the male "Junias" in the Latin translations of the New Testament. In Paul's identification of her as a relative, as being "in Christ" before him and "prominent among the apostles," Finlan finds it significant that Paul greeted her as an "apostle" in a straightforward, matter-of-fact way as if there is nothing unusual in a female apostle. In the Corinthian and Roman letters, Paul addressed a number of women as "leaders," but Junia is the only female apostle named in the New Testament.[13]
The problem of translating the name arises because, when the New Testament was composed, Greek was normally written without accents, although these already had been invented. If written with an acute accent on the penultimate syllable (Ἰουνίαν), the name is "Junia" (a woman's name); if with a circumflex accent on the final syllable (Ἰουνιᾶν), it is "Junias" (a man's). No conclusion can be drawn from the masculine gender of the associated words in the same verse, since they apply also to the male Andronicus. Accordingly, even if Junia(s) is a woman, the rules of Greek grammar put those words in the masculine form. The overwhelming choice of the male form, (Ἰουνιᾶν), when in the 9th century accents were added in manuscripts, may have been influenced by the grammatical gender of these words, but it has also been attributed to a supposed bias on the part of scribes against the idea of a female apostle.[14]
Epp in his book Junia: The First Woman Apostle gives a textual critical evaluation of the history of Junia in the Greek text and also the search in non-Biblical Greek literature for "Junias"─the alleged masculine form of the name which has not been found in writings from New Testament times and only rarely thereafter.[15] He points out that the earliest copies of the Greek texts for Romans 16:7 are majuscules (capital letters). There are no accent marks in them. The importance of this is that the gender of the name depends on the accentuation. Hence, the earliest texts are inconclusive and we are very dependent on Patristic interpretation for the gender of Junia. When the minuscules (using lower case Greek letters) appeared, Junia was accented with a character which indicates the feminine form of the name. The feminine form of the name appeared in Erasmus' critical Greek text in 1516 and continuously thereafter in all other critical Greek texts, with the exception of Alford's 1858 edition, until 1928 when Nestle inexplicably (read: he didn't explain it in the apparatus) went to the masculine form. This remained the case until the 1998, when the edition just as inexplicably went back the other way and the masculine was dropped as even an alternative (not in the apparatus). Hence, the textual weight seemed to be for the feminine name Junia, which text critic Eldon Epp in 2005 believed most scholars accept.[15] However, the masculine form is preferred in the UBS New Testament, 4th edition, which matches the 27th edition of the Nestle-Aland text (the latest editions of each text).
Two Greek manuscripts have "Julia" (clearly a woman's name) instead of "Junia(s)" in this verse. One is papyrus P46 of about the year 200. The other is the 13th-century minuscule manuscript catalogued as "6". "Julia" is also the reading in some Latin manuscripts, in one tradition of Coptic manuscripts and in Ethiopic manuscripts. Three Greek uncial manuscripts have the inverse substitution, ("Junia(s)" in place of "Julia") in Romans 16:15. This raises the question whether the proximity of the two names, "Junia(s)" and "Julia", on the same page is the reason why, in both cases, a few scribes replaced one name with the other. There are also tentative connections between Junia and Joanna,[Luke 8:3] suggesting that Junia could be the Latin form of the Hebrew Joanna. Thus, it is feasible that Junia is ‘Joanna.’[16]
Only one record of the male name "Junias" has been discovered in extra-biblical Greek literature, which names him as the bishop of Apameia of Syria. Three clear occurrences of "Junia" have been found. While earlier searches for "Junias" in Latin also yielded no evidence, it is reported that "Junias" has been found as a Latin nickname or diminutive for the name "Junianas", which was not uncommon both in Greek and Latin.[14] While this is a possibility, historical studies on the name "Junia" as a contracted form of "Junianas" has shown there are over 250 citations of the name Junia in antiquity all of which have been found to refer to women, with not one single case proven to be the abbreviated form of Junianus to Junia.[17] Meanwhile the name Junia is attested multiple times on inscriptions, tombstones and records; most notably, General Brutus’ half sister, Junia.[18]
Among the early Church Fathers, the United Bible Societies The Greek New Testament only cites Jerome as having read the name "Julia" in Romans 16:7 and Chrysostom as having understood the name as the feminine "Junia". Chrysostom wrote: "O how great is the devotion of this woman that she should be counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!"[19] Although among the Fathers, "an almost universal sense that this was a woman’s name surfaces—at least through the twelfth century, ... this must be couched tentatively because although at least seventeen fathers discuss the issue (see Fitzmyer’s commentary on Romans for the data), the majority of these are Latin fathers,"[14] and "Junia", but not "Junias", was a common enough name in Latin. It has even been claimed that the first known mention of Junia as a male is by Aegidus of Rome (1245–1316), though this ignores the evidence of the Greek manuscripts about how the name was actually interpreted at least from the 9th century onward.
The Coptic Synaxarium reading for the twenty-third of Bashans identifies Junia the Apostle as being a man of the tribe of Judah
__________________
Monies to help us may be sent to P.O. Box 797, Jonesville, La 71343.

If it is for one of our direct needs please mark it on the check.
Facebook Janice LaVaun Taylor Alvear
Reply With Quote
  #1668  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:42 AM
Socialite Socialite is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
Hey Prax...will have to address the entire Acts 1 thing later...busy. BUT, wanted to ask if you think only women are in the church, since you keep emphasizing the feminine gender of the term church? Or, could it be that this is because the church is listed as a Bride, married to a bride-groom? Clearly the gender is meta-phorical in its usage...which I wouldn't think I'd have to point out!
Metaphor? Brother, put away your eraser! It's plain and literal!


Only messing with you, RDP.
Reply With Quote
  #1669  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:43 AM
Socialite Socialite is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
You're tired argument about the kiss demonstrable poor "hermeneutics," not to mention an equivocation fallacy. It says, "I cannot explain I Tim. 2:11-15, so I'll just try to poke holes in his argument by asking if he greets everyone w/ a kiss!" According to this logic NONE of the Bible is for us today !

It's all "culturally relative"! Way to go prax!
There's no logical fallacy here -- what are you talking about?

Prax's point is that there are some things "commanded" as a way of culture. You can refute why 1 Tim 2 is not to be refuted as cultural, but Prax's point is a legitimate point to interact on IMO.
Reply With Quote
  #1670  
Old 02-16-2011, 11:44 AM
Socialite Socialite is offline
Banned


 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,280
Re: Do You Believe In Women Preachers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdp View Post
And which one of these women expounded from the Scriptures to men:______________? C'mon Prax...can't you at least fill out O-N-E blank? Purrtttyyy pleeeeeease!
Expounded from the Scriptures... it's just soooooo terribly technical.

Like speaking "Thus saith the Lord" is something less than "Thus SAID the Lord?"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Women, do this for yourselves. Men, do this for the women in your life... Tina Fellowship Hall 16 07-26-2007 03:20 PM
Women Preachers DEAK Fellowship Hall 69 07-17-2007 03:15 PM
What men REALLY know about Women Praxeas Fellowship Hall 56 06-22-2007 07:11 AM
What women want:::::::::: berkeley Fellowship Hall 146 06-16-2007 12:51 AM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by Amanah

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.