Is God good?

[Timmy]

I know. Silly question.

But seriously. If you believe the Bible is true, then there are many scriptures, most but not all in the OT, that require contortions (IMO) to avoid concluding that God is evil. A principle of Biblical interpretation that's commonly used is to approach the Bible without preconceived ideas (with the possible exception that the Bible is true -- any contradictions or errors you think you find cannot really be contradictions or errors), to determine what the Bible is really saying (exegesis), and not to prove what we already believe (eisegesis). So set aside the idea that God is good, for a moment. He certainly may be good, but let's use the Bible to discover whether He is good or not, shall we?

Yes, there are scriptures that explicitly state that God is good. No quarrel, there. But if there are scriptures that indicate the opposite, how do we resolve this apparent contradiction? I don't know of any scriptures that explicity state that God is evil. But what if we find God performing evil actions? What are we to do with them?

Here's one example. The plagues. Look at Exodus. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not let God's people leave. That's what it says. It doesn't say, as some contend, that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. Some of the plagues say he did, but the first one and several others say it was God's doing.

That's just one problem with the story. Another one is God's reasons for the hardening and for the plaguing: it was to show that He was God, and that He was powerful. Any mention of the Egyptian people deserving what they got is not to be found (except possibly the slave overseers). In fact, "the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required." Even Moses was well regarded in Egypt, among the people as well as the government officials. Even if one accepts that Pharaoh and the overseers were bad guys, deserving punishment, why punish the people?

So we have 10 plagues. The grand finale being the killing of many thousands, perhaps millions of children. "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

So, the Bible shows us that God is a mass killer. And the motive was to prove that He was powerful. To show off. And to show the Egyptians that He was the Lord. Does that end justify the means? Was there no better way to show them He was God? Could He not have softened Pharaoh's heart, rather than harden it?

[OneAccord]

With respect, your last paragraph reveals a lack of understanding in the Soverienty of God.
God is holy. And He desires that His people be holy. Before Jesus came to redeem men from sin...God destroyed the sinner along with the sin. This is in keeping with the fact that, through Adam's sin, death entered into the world. God eradicated sin by eradicating the sinner. Until a better way was provided, this was the way for sin to be eradicated.

But, with the Death of Jesus, God provided the means for our escape from sin. Jesus became sin for us. Our sins were nailed to the tree and Jesus died to redeem us from sin. He died so we wouldn't have to.

No, God could not "soften Pharoahs heart". God gave us our free will when we were created. To "force" something on Pharoah would have taken a way his freewill, which was God's gift to us. God didn't slay the wicked to "show them he was God". He did it to eradicate sin.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

With respect, your last paragraph reveals a lack of understanding in the Soverienty of God.
God is holy. And He desires that His people be holy. Before Jesus came to redeem men from sin...God destroyed the sinner along with the sin. This is in keeping with the fact that, through Adam's sin, death entered into the world. God eradicated sin by eradicating the sinner. Until a better way was provided, this was the way for sin to be eradicated.

The question is about God's goodness, not sovereignty (which I do understand). Sovereignty does not equal goodness or holiness.

And what sin were the Egyptian people guilty of? If it is the same sin we all are guilty of, whether that be being born in sin, or actually committing various sins (nobody is perfect), why did God not kill every Egyptian, rather than just the first born, and why did He not kill the Israelites?

But, with the Death of Jesus, God provided the means for our escape from sin. Jesus became sin for us. Our sins were nailed to the tree and Jesus died to redeem us from sin. He died so we wouldn't have to.

No, God could not "soften Pharoahs heart". God gave us our free will when we were created. To "force" something on Pharoah would have taken a way his freewill, which was God's gift to us.

"Could not"? What does that say about God's power and sovereignty? But He did violate Pharaoh's free will -- He hardened his heart. And He did "soften" the people's hearts toward the Israelites.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

If God had not done that, Pharaoh would have let them go. Otherwise, this verse makes no sense.

God didn't slay the wicked to "show them he was God". He did it to eradicate sin.

Is that what the Bible says about the plagues?

Exodus 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, and my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments.

5 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt, and bring out the children of Israel from among them.

Exodus 9:14 For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth.

15 For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth.

16 And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Exodus 10:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

[mizpeh]

You want to examine if God is good by his actions. You equate God's judgements on sin as being evil. What do you think it means when the Bible says God 'hardened' someone's heart? I don't believe for a second that God arbitrarily hardens some hearts and not others for He is no respecter of person and He is just. Therefore if God hardens a heart He has reason because of His foreknowledge. Here are some examples of why God hardens hearts:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them

Isa 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

Dan 5:20 But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him:


Isa 44: 9 They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
10 Who hath formed a god, or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing?
11 Behold, all his fellows shall be ashamed: and the workmen, they are of men: let them all be gathered together, let them stand up; yet they shall fear, and they shall be ashamed together.
12 The smith with the tongs both worketh in the coals, and fashioneth it with hammers, and worketh it with the strength of his arms: yea, he is hungry, and his strength faileth: he drinketh no water, and is faint.
13 The carpenter stretcheth out his rule; he marketh it out with a line; he fitteth it with planes, and he marketh it out with the compass, and maketh it after the figure of a man, according to the beauty of a man; that it may remain in the house.
14 He heweth him down cedars, and taketh the cypress and the oak, which he strengtheneth for himself among the trees of the forest: he planteth an ash, and the rain doth nourish it.
15 Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
16 He burneth part thereof in the fire; with part thereof he eateth flesh; he roasteth roast, and is satisfied: yea, he warmeth himself, and saith, Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire:
17 And the residue thereof he maketh a god, even his graven image: he falleth down unto it, and worshippeth it, and prayeth unto it, and saith, Deliver me; for thou art my god.
18 They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.
19 And none considereth in his heart, neither is there knowledge nor understanding to say, I have burned part of it in the fire; yea, also I have baked bread upon the coals thereof; I have roasted flesh, and eaten it: and shall I make the residue thereof an abomination? shall I fall down to the stock of a tree?
20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Ps 78:28 And he let it fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat was yet in their mouths,
31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.
33 Therefore their days did he consume in vanity, and their years in trouble. 34 When he slew them, then they sought him: and they returned and enquired early after God.
35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer. 36 Nevertheless they did flatter him with their mouth, and they lied unto him with their tongues.
37 For their heart was not right with him, neither were they stedfast in his covenant.
38 But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39 For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.

Ps 81:10 I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt: open thy mouth wide, and I will fill it.
11 But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would none of me.
12 So I gave them up unto their own hearts' lust: and they walked in their own counsels.
13 Oh that my people had hearkened unto me, and Israel had walked in my ways!
14 I should soon have subdued their enemies, and turned my hand against their adversaries.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You want to examine if God is good by his actions. You equate God's judgements on sin as being evil. What do you think it means when the Bible says God 'hardened' someone's heart? I don't believe for a second that God arbitrarily hardens some hearts and not others for He is no respecter of person and He is just. Therefore if God hardens a heart He has reason because of His foreknowledge. Here are some examples of why God hardens hearts:

Not to mention strong delusion God sent in 2 Thess 2:11.

Were the plagues God's judgments on sin? I don't see where the Bible says that. Unless it was the Pharaoh's "sin" of not letting the Israelites go make sacrifices (that was the story Moses gave, anyway), the result of God hardening Pharaoh's heart. And what do I think that means? In the case of Pharaoh (according to Exodus), I think it means God did something to Pharaoh to make him be stubborn. And if He had not done that, God knew what would have happened: the Israelites would have been let go, plain and simple. Exodus 4:21. What do you think it means?

[mizpeh]

God is immutable. He doesn't change. He is also no respecter of persons or nations. He treats them all the same. If God hardens a heart (makes it obstinate or stubborn) then He has good reason and perfect foreknowledge.

God drove the Canaanites out of the land because of their sins not because of how good the Israelites were.

Deut 9:4 Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

God did judge Egypt for their sins and not for Pharoah's sin of disobeying God by not letting the people go. The Egyptian ruler had Hebrew babies thrown into the river. Egypt was called the iron furnace of affliction for Israel. How sinful was Egypt? I don't know.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Lastly why did God send a strong delusion? Can you see the irony?

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

I know. Silly question.

But seriously. If you believe the Bible is true, then there are many scriptures, most but not all in the OT, that require contortions (IMO) to avoid concluding that God is evil. A principle of Biblical interpretation that's commonly used is to approach the Bible without preconceived ideas (with the possible exception that the Bible is true -- any contradictions or errors you think you find cannot really be contradictions or errors), to determine what the Bible is really saying (exegesis), and not to prove what we already believe (eisegesis). So set aside the idea that God is good, for a moment. He certainly may be good, but let's use the Bible to discover whether He is good or not, shall we?

Yes, there are scriptures that explicitly state that God is good. No quarrel, there. But if there are scriptures that indicate the opposite, how do we resolve this apparent contradiction? I don't know of any scriptures that explicity state that God is evil. But what if we find God performing evil actions? What are we to do with them?

Here's one example. The plagues. Look at Exodus. God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not let God's people leave. That's what it says. It doesn't say, as some contend, that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first. Some of the plagues say he did, but the first one and several others say it was God's doing.

That's just one problem with the story. Another one is God's reasons for the hardening and for the plaguing: it was to show that He was God, and that He was powerful. Any mention of the Egyptian people deserving what they got is not to be found (except possibly the slave overseers). In fact, "the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required." Even Moses was well regarded in Egypt, among the people as well as the government officials. Even if one accepts that Pharaoh and the overseers were bad guys, deserving punishment, why punish the people?

So we have 10 plagues. The grand finale being the killing of many thousands, perhaps millions of children. "And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead."

So, the Bible shows us that God is a mass killer. And the motive was to prove that He was powerful. To show off. And to show the Egyptians that He was the Lord. Does that end justify the means? Was there no better way to show them He was God? Could He not have softened Pharaoh's heart, rather than harden it?

The problem is are you using the bible definition of what is good and what is evil? Let's use a different term....righteousness and unrighteousness... or Holy and Un-Holy....

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The problem is are you using the bible definition of what is good and what is evil? Let's use a different term....righteousness and unrighteousness... or Holy and Un-Holy....

OK, what is the Bible definition of these terms?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

OK, what is the Bible definition of these terms?

Evil

There are two kinds...morally and physically. Physically generally refers to calamity or unfavorable events....tornadoes for example. God is said to be the creator of good and evil

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Yet God is not morally evil

Man does evil because his heart is evil and he thinks of evil things continually. This is to cause mischief. It's usually for selfish reasons.

God's actions, on the other hand, were not done out of capriciousness or mischief. They were done for the cause of a greater moral end. In the cases discussed here it was for His chosen people, to protect them and to bless them.

In some cases God brought actions against them...it was still for the same moral cause for a different end...to correct them.

God does not do evil. He does justice and righteousness.

Man does things because he wants to sin. He does things for selfish motives. He does things out of malicious intent...on whims. Man does thing "evil" NOT out of a sense of righteous justice...that is evil.

God's actions on Pharoah were for the benefit of Israel and all the posterity that would learn from those that oppose God.
Gen 6:5 The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

God knows all the hearts of men. He knows what is really in them and He knows if they have faith and if they will convert.

God is Holy which means He is separate from fallen creation. God is not a man that He should lie....so He is also not a man that he should fornicate or commit anything else that is an attribute of the fallen human nature. The Law is made for man. Nobody can judge God but even if we could we have to look at intent. We'd have to understand what HE understands and know what HE knows.

[Timmy]

God is immutable. He doesn't change.

And His mercy endures forever. Except when it doesn't.

Genesis 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.

Thanks, I had forgotten about that promise. So, the plagues were God's judgment for four hundred years of afflicting the Jews. At least, they punished the generation that happened to be alive at the time, for the sins of their fathers and leaders. But does it justify interfering with Pharaoh's "free will"?

And if it was sinful to enslave the children of Israel, how is it OK for them (at God's orders) to enslave, e.g., the virgin girls of the Midianites (Numbers 31)?