Who is/was the Greatest Reformer of the Christian Faith?

[Nahum]

Beginning immediately after the era of Constantine, who is/was the greatest reformer of the Christian faith?

[Nahum]

Feel free to tell us who you chose, and why.

[SDG]

Luther changed history as we know it.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Beginning immediately after the era of Constantine, who is/was the greatest reformer of the Christian faith?

Julian the Apostate

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Julian the Apostate

Are you saying the reformation, while well intended was/is miss guided?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Are you saying the reformation, while well intended was/is miss guided?

I guess I wasn't saying anything, really CJ. It's just PP said "beginning right after Constantine..." and the first "reformer" that came to mind "right after Constantine" was his nephew Julian.

[pelathais]

... but crakjak asked about my thoughts on the Reformation ...

The Reformation that we generally look at was the movement instigated by Martin Luther's revolt against Rome. The subject is complex and already fills volumes, one can't help but resort to generalizations here. The Protestant Reformation was of course preceded by many attempts at reform. Most of those reformations (including Luther's) ended up being associated with social reform movements like the Peasant Revolt.

In the 1200-1300's there was the Hussite reform that was centered in Bohemia. This reform was accompanied by a movement to reform the election of the Holy Roman Emperor and a communistic movement that became known as the Taborites. Land reform was their goal more than Spiritual concerns. It took three crusades to put this down.

Luther's reform led inexorably to the 30 Years' War; perhaps the most destructive European conflict up until WW1.

To say any of this was "misguided" would imply that other historical events are guided. At the risk of creating offense, and because there's no way I could adequately explain myself; let me say that human movements such as these are best understood by looking at the causes and their results. A storm is not "misguided" even if you have to bear the brunt of its surge. An earthquake isn't misguided. So also, in the political realm, storms like the Protestant Reformation were neither guided nor misguided - they just happened when there was enough pressure behind them to cause the event.

We can "judge" the individuals and look for heroes and villians. But we cannot judge the storm. It just happens.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

...

We can "judge" the individuals and look for heroes and villians. But we cannot judge the storm. It just happens.

Are you a Deist, Pelathais? Did God get the ball started and then take his hands off it and let come what may? Or is He intimately involved in the direction of events of the world we live in?

Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Are you a Deist, Pelathais? Did God get the ball started and then take his hands off it and let come what may? Or is He intimately involved in the direction of events of the world we live in?

Nah 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

In the first paragragh you give me something of a false dilemma. So, let me restate your question:

Either pelathais is a deist or he believes that an angry and easily irritated God kills small children. Which of these best describes me?

As I said in the post, I don't think I can adequately explain this issue within the small confines of this little box into which I am typing. Unlike some who would misquote Nahum, I do not attribute the wrath of a storm to the "wrath of God." I have seen the devastation of storms (both natural and political) and I am persuaded that the morality of God is at a higher plane than that of an oversized and ill mannered King Kong-like beast.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the first paragragh you give me something of a false dilemma. So, let me restate your question:

Either pelathais is a deist or he believes that an angry and easily irritated God kills small children. Which of these best describes me?

As I said in the post, I don't think I can adequately explain this issue within the small confines of this little box into which I am typing. Unlike some who would misquote Nahum, I do not attribute the wrath of a storm to the "wrath of God." I have seen the devastation of storms (both natural and political) and I am persuaded that the morality of God is at a higher plane than that of an oversized and ill mannered King Kong-like beast.

I was responding to the part I highlighted in your post....."it just happens" as though perhaps God is on a vacation and doesn't know/doesn't care and isn't really the ruler of the nations (setting some up, putting some down). I took you to be saying storms just happen and God has nothing to do with them, likewise evil happens and God is not involved whatsoever or perhaps He turns a blind eye.

I believe God sends rain on the just and the unjust and sometimes sends famine on the unjust, or pestilence, or sword, as chastisement. I believe it because I find it in the Bible. I agree that God is on a higher moral plane than we are and is not an ill tempered beast. He is just and holy.

I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Isa 45:19

I quoted Nahum verbatim. I did not misquote him. If you're saying my understanding of that verse is incorrect, please tell me why you think that.