Are we Modalist or Unitarian?

Praxeas · #1 02-28-2007, 01:34 AM

Modalists believe there is a definite distinction between Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but not a personal distinction. There is One unipersonal God who is all three, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Trinitarians believe there are three Persons...God is a Tripersonal being. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct persons. One being and three persons, where as Modalism is One being, One person, three modes. Thus in Modalism God is the Son.

Unitarianism on the other hand God is unipersonal. One being and one person but He is ONLY the Father and the Spirit is just his essence and the Son is just a human person...someone OTHER than the Father. So they have two persons in view. One is God and one is the Son.

I say Oneness are Modalist in nature, though Modalism may not be the best term it fits closest to what OPs have historically held in opposition to the Trinity.

Lately though there have arisen those that have a sort of Unitarian viewpoint, claiming only the Father is God and the Son is infact someone (person) other than God. Two persons...a God person and a human person. Though they deny they are Unitarians because they say Jesus is God, they still have a Unitarian model where there are two persons. A divine person and a human person who are separate.

BTW I still don't see how one can say Father and Son are two separate persons and yet say Jesus is God

Digging4Truth · #2 02-28-2007, 08:14 AM

Here are some scriptures to consider in discussing this question. These scriptures appear to demonstrate that the apostles saw a difference between the father and the son. Many times things are said such as.... from/to God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts?

Quote:

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

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Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

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1Cr 1:3 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

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1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.

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2Cr 1:2 Grace [be] to you and peace from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

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2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

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2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

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Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

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Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,

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Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:

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Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

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Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,

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Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

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Eph 6:23 Peace [be] to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

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Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

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Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

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1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

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1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

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1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

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2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

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2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

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1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

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2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, [my] dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Tts 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

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Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

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1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

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1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

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1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

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1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

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1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

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2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

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Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:

crakjak · #3 02-28-2007, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Here are some scriptures to consider in discussing this question. These scriptures appear to demonstrate that the apostles saw a difference between the father and the son. Many times things are said such as.... from/to God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts?

You might want to consider also 1 Cor. 8.6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."

There is certainly distinction, and is understandable that there is varying opinions and views. I don't think to completely define God in human terms will ever fully work, about the time we think we have Him in a box He pops out. He is uncontainable!!

Digging4Truth · #4 02-28-2007, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

You might want to consider also 1 Cor. 8.6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."

There is certainly distinction, and is understandable that there is varying opinions and views. I don't think to completely define God is human terms will ever fully work, about the time we think we have Him in a box He pops out. He is uncontainable!!

I have that scripture up there... what translation have you quoted above?

I agree too... that there definitely appears to have been a distinction in the minds of the apostles.

crakjak · #5 02-28-2007, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I have that scripture up there... what translation have you quoted above?

I agree too... that there definitely appears to have been a distinction in the minds of the apostles.

So you do, I overlooked it the first time. New King James Version

Digging4Truth · #6 02-28-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

So you do, I overlooked it the first time. New King James Version

Thanks...

I could have found out myself on http://www.blueletterbible.org but I found myself a tad lazy.

Michael The Disciple · #7 03-01-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

You might want to consider also 1 Cor. 8.6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."

There is certainly distinction, and is understandable that there is varying opinions and views. I don't think to completely define God in human terms will ever fully work, about the time we think we have Him in a box He pops out. He is uncontainable!!

For the Church there is ONLY one God, even the Father.
For the Church there is ONLY one Lord, even Jesus.

If we can hold to that the truth of Oneness can come forth.

Apostle Thomas:

28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

If Jesus was Thomas's Lord he was also his God. Jesus was BOTH to Thomas.

And if he was God to Thomas he was God the Father. He shared a common Apostolic faith in Messiah.

Paul said to US there is One God even the Father. So if Jesus is God he is God the Father.

The answer to 1 Cor. 8:6 is that rather than separating the One God and the One Lord Paul is simply identifying the one who is both.

The Greek word KAI means EVEN as much as it means and.

When read in this manner the thought of 2 god beings vanishes.

"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; EVEN one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."

That goes right along with Hear O Israel The Lord our God is ONE.

crakjak · #8 03-01-2007, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

For the Church there is ONLY one God, even the Father.
For the Church there is ONLY one Lord, even Jesus.

If we can hold to that the truth of Oneness can come forth.

Apostle Thomas:

28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28

If Jesus was Thomas's Lord he was also his God. Jesus was BOTH to Thomas.

And if he was God to Thomas he was God the Father. He shared a common Apostolic faith in Messiah.

Paul said to US there is One God even the Father. So if Jesus is God he is God the Father.

The answer to 1 Cor. 8:6 is that rather than separating the One God and the One Lord Paul is simply identifying the one who is both.

The Greek word KAI means EVEN as much as it means and.

When read in this manner the thought of 2 god beings vanishes.

"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; EVEN one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."

That goes right along with Hear O Israel The Lord our God is ONE.

I know you can shade it all to what you want it to say because it fits the separatation that the op position affirms.

I believe in one God, but I am not afraid of the fact that God is not a man, nor can He be contained with human definition.

Further I don't believe that God rejects the majority of confessing Christians today and thoughout history because they see and define the Godhead in a little different manner.

This is not God's purpose, he sent His Son into the world to seek and to save, not to hide the truth behind some difficult understanding of ALL that He is man has always divided and separated, Jesus calls sinners to faith and repentance and a changed life. JMHO

Michael The Disciple · #9 03-01-2007, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

I know you can shade it all to what you want it to say because it fits the separatation that the op position affirms.

I believe in one God, but I am not afraid of the fact that God is not a man, nor can He be contained with human definition.

Further I don't believe that God rejects the majority of confessing Christians today and thoughout history because they see and define the Godhead in a little different manner.

This is not God's purpose, he sent His Son into the world to seek and to save, not to hide the truth behind some difficult understanding of ALL that He is man has always divided and separated, Jesus calls sinners to faith and repentance and a changed life. JMHO

Shade it? You explain it then. If there is only one God and he is the Father and Jesus is God why does that not make him the Father?

And if the same one who is Thomas Lord (Jesus) is his God how could Jesus NOT be both?

You teach me.

Praxeas · #10 02-28-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Here are some scriptures to consider in discussing this question. These scriptures appear to demonstrate that the apostles saw a difference between the father and the son. Many times things are said such as.... from/to God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Any thoughts?

Yes....BUT, are we modalists or Unitarians? Both Modalists and Unitarians saw a diffference between Father and Son, so this post does not really get to the heart of the matter