Question about why Oneness is so important?

I don't know much about this debate, and wondered what was the big deal and what was at stake? Does someone lose their salvation for beliving in the trinity or Jesus as God?

[Brother Price]

This is a good question.

Jesus said in John 8:24, "That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be--if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins." He said that unless one believes that He is God, they shall die in their sins.

In Mark 2:5-7, we see even the Pharisees knew that only God could forgive sins, "And when Jesus saw their faith [their confidence in God through Him], He said to the paralyzed man, Son, your sins are forgiven Unregistered and put away [that is, the penalty is remitted, the sense of guilt removed, and you are made upright and in right standing with God]. Now some of the scribes were sitting there, holding a dialogue with themselves as they questioned in their hearts, Why does this Man talk like this? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins [remove guilt, remit the penalty, and bestow righteousness instead] except God alone?"

Thus, the belief that Jesus is the only one who can forgive sins, meaning also that He is God, is paramount to salvation.

Let's look at Isaiah 43:10-11, "You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know Me, believe Me and remain steadfast to Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior." God Himself says that there is none beside Him, none before Him, and no other Savior but Him. From time and eternity, God has always been one, and will always be only one.

Is it salvational? Yes. Why? Because the belief in the trintiy is a belief in a false god, and not making Jesus Christ, as the scriptures declared, the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

This is a good question.

Jesus said in John 8:24, "That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be--if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins." He said that unless one believes that He is God, they shall die in their sins.

In Mark 2:5-7, we see even the Pharisees knew that only God could forgive sins, "And when Jesus saw their faith [their confidence in God through Him], He said to the paralyzed man, Son, your sins are forgiven Unregistered and put away [that is, the penalty is remitted, the sense of guilt removed, and you are made upright and in right standing with God]. Now some of the scribes were sitting there, holding a dialogue with themselves as they questioned in their hearts, Why does this Man talk like this? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins [remove guilt, remit the penalty, and bestow righteousness instead] except God alone?"

Thus, the belief that Jesus is the only one who can forgive sins, meaning also that He is God, is paramount to salvation.

Let's look at Isaiah 43:10-11, "You are My witnesses, says the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen, that you may know Me, believe Me and remain steadfast to Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior." God Himself says that there is none beside Him, none before Him, and no other Savior but Him. From time and eternity, God has always been one, and will always be only one.

Is it salvational? Yes. Why? Because the belief in the trintiy is a belief in a false god, and not making Jesus Christ, as the scriptures declared, the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

The trouble is in the term "person", of course. If trinitarians say God is three persons, and you say no, God is just one person, you both are using the term "person" in a symbolic way. The usual use of the word is for a human individual, which God is not, of course. One might say Jesus of Nazareth, the Man, God in human form, was a person, in that sense. But God in His eternal, infinite being is not a person (not just one literal person and not three literal persons) in that sense.

Now, trinitarians use the term "person" in a different sense. They don't mean that God is just three guys who hold meetings and shoot the breeze now and then, like three buddies down at the pub. Of course they don't. God is not three human beings! They are referring to the three "somethings" that are clearly written about in many places in the Bible. Oneness folks call the three somethings "offices" or "manifestations". Trinitarians call them "persons".

Trinitarians use "person" because that term seems to fit well, in many of the Biblical accounts of the three somethings. These somethings often speak to each other, they have different knowledge and different wills, they interact in ways that are very much like the ways persons interact. They (these offices, manifestations, or persons, or make up a new word!) are not human individuals. But they have many attributes of individuals. Two of them are Father and Son, for crying out loud! One sends another one (the Father sent the Son, and the Son sends the Comforter). One raised another from the dead. One now sits at the right hand of another!

But using the word "person" for these somethings will send a trinny to hell. Oooookaaaay.

And a baptizer quoting Jesus instead of Peter will send the baptizee to hell. Uh huh.

FourthTrumpet, I'm with you. What's the big deal, fighting over one simple word, used figuratively?

Originally Posted by Brother Price

This is a good question.

Jesus said in John 8:24, "That is why I told you that you will die in (under the curse of) your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He [Whom I claim to be--if you do not adhere to, trust in, and rely on Me], you will die in your sins." He said that unless one believes that He is God, they shall die in their sins.

Where does it say "Unless you believe that I am God, you will die in your sins? Trinitarians also believe in the deity of Christ and, in fact, the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed even says that Jesus is "of one essence with the Father."

In Mark 2:5-7, we see even the Pharisees knew that only God could forgive sins, "And when Jesus saw their faith [their confidence in God through Him], He said to the paralyzed man, Son, your sins are forgiven Unregistered and put away [that is, the penalty is remitted, the sense of guilt removed, and you are made upright and in right standing with God]. Now some of the scribes were sitting there, holding a dialogue with themselves as they questioned in their hearts, Why does this Man talk like this? He is blaspheming! Who can forgive sins [remove guilt, remit the penalty, and bestow righteousness instead] except God alone?"

Thus, the belief that Jesus is the only one who can forgive sins, meaning also that He is God, is paramount to salvation.

You need to STOP BEARING FALSE WITNESS AGAINST JESUS !!!!!! Read THE REST OF THE PASSAGE: "And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? "Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house." Notice also what Jesus said to the Apostles in John 20:19-23, "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, 'Peace be with you.' When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.' And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld.'"

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by FourthTrumpet

I don't know much about this debate, and wondered what was the big deal and what was at stake? Does someone lose their salvation for beliving in the trinity or Jesus as God?

Why are you saying believing in the trinity "or Jesus as God" as though Oneness does not believe Jesus is God?

As I said I'm not clear on everything OP believe or do not believe.

BTW I just finished listening to a long debate someone linked to with Matt Slick and a oneness guy (there's a continuation of it somewhere - anyone got a link?) and the oneness guy was constantly putting words into Matt's mouth. It was annoying to listen to, and it was clear both were confused about the others position.

Well, I'm not up for a debate on this subject. I believe simply believe my only true living and almighty God eternally exists in three persons, co-equal in glory and power: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Some how that doesn't violate God's will, and I believe only in Heaven can such a truth be articulated for us adequately - whereas on earth we simply have a limited capacity/vocabulary to wrap our heads around something we've yet to fully experience - so I don't need to be able to articulate all the fine details that only lead to endless strawman arguements and confusing debates, for others to suffer through (anyone got that link BTW ).

Somehow at the end of such a perfect non-confusing explanation I'd be vindicated as someone who is NOT worshipping multiple "gods" like the pagans do.

FT

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by FourthTrumpet

As I said I'm not clear on everything OP believe or do not believe.

BTW I just finished listening to a long debate someone linked to with Matt Slick and a oneness guy (there's a continuation of it somewhere - anyone got a link?) and the oneness guy was constantly putting words into Matt's mouth. It was annoying to listen to, and it was clear both were confused about the others position.

Well, I'm not up for a debate on this subject. I believe simply believe my only true living and almighty God eternally exists in three persons, co-equal in glory and power: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Some how that doesn't violate God's will, and I believe only in Heaven can such a truth be articulated for us adequately - whereas on earth we simply have a limited capacity/vocabulary to wrap our heads around something we've yet to fully experience - so I don't need to be able to articulate all the fine details that only lead to endless strawman arguements and confusing debates, for others to suffer through (anyone got that link BTW ).

Somehow at the end of such a perfect non-confusing explanation I'd be vindicated as someone who is NOT worshipping multiple "gods" like the pagans do.

FT

I believe Trinitarians confuse us often by speaking of the Almighty God as if God is a HE (person) , but then tell us He exists or has existed eternally as three other HEs (persons)

I believe God is one HE who exists eternally as HE, the I AM, Yahweh and that He became the Son when HE added a Human nature to His own person and Divine nature to come to exist (being) as a Human in addition to His continued existence (being) as God transcendent without or external to the Human nature

I can't really see what else I can add of value to this subject. No believer knows everything about God, and so I simply accept that for myself this isn't damning me in any way if words fail me to articulate these profound things as per my previous comments. It's enough that I am obedient and continue to be a fisher of men - that I never forget what God saved me from when I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior, and share this with others. There's plenty the Holy Spirit is doing on my behalf when words simply fail me. Some people are impossible for us to evangelise, so often times simple words like "come and see" like Philip used with Nathanel suffice to invite someone to Church. When explaining God's Project to my future child I'll simply say "look we're like Noah building an ark - doing the Work of the Lord - and at some point we'll be rescued from a judgement, so don't leave Jesus Christ, nor do we resist the Holy Spirit's lead, so you won't fall short of obeying God's will of pointing others to Christ who saved us both and wants to save them too". That's enough information for them. It's enough that one obeys rather than get bogged down in theory. A well educated pastor was trying to reason one time with an unbeliever with a ton of education. However it wasn't until one of the brethern with him simply said to the other man "Jesus loves you" that the fellow broke down into tears and accepted Jesus. Sometimes we make things too complicated for ourselves. This will likely be how my parents are saved, the Lord will probabably use one of my children when they are young "Grandma/Grandpa, my Jesus loves you", etc. My parents are catholic. So I'll obviously explain to them simply that idols are not real, and not to worship idols like thier grandparents - but expecting them to fully grasping everything (or for me to) about God is simply unreasonable.

[IAintMovin]

Hey FT ... .Your sig line.... you left out some of the scripture.... and these three are one........

Some closing thoughts from me on what I was saying in my last post..

My position is that God's existence is so far beyond our mortal experience that we cannot possible comprehend or describe it in any meaningful way. When pre-school age cannot imagine what it is like to be an adult and go to work every day, to worry about money, to have a fear of rejection or ridicule,
etc...it seems pointless trying to explain it all to them - they just cannot understand it. Similarly, when dealing with people from pre-modern villages in
3rd world countries, many simply cannot comprehend what it is like to live here in the 1st world. Many grasp that we have a higher standard of living,
but they don't understand that all of one's paycheck often immediately goes to paying a mortgage, credit card bills, taxes, etc - with no real surplus
for savings. they cannot understand that, because it is so foreign to their experience. If I assume for a moment that the universe has two types of
beings - three-fold beings and monophysite beings (like us) - I would assume that the beings with a single existence would never be able to fathom or
adequately describe the threefold existence of the other type of being. It would be impossible. Could a hypothetical 2-D stickman comprehend a 3-D pencil from our dimension going through the paper he lives on? First he'll see a little dot of lead that has a wood grained circle growing around it - eventually briefly by an eraser, etc. So how can one not roll their eyes when I hear people argue about this?

It's vanity.

The tabernacle God had Israel construct on earth was a shadow and did not do the real tabernacle in Heaven any justice. Nor did Paul consider the examples about how a dead husband frees the wife from the marriage contract to be perfect - yet it was the best example given out limited perspective to begin to wrap our heads around things.

Hope that helps.