Moses was unfaithful when called

[donfriesen1]

In Ex3,4 God calls and miracle-equips Moses for the Exodus ministry, but then attempts to kill him as he journeys to fulfill his calling. And why? Ex4.26 because of the circumcision. Moses hadn't been faithful/obedient to the Covenant requirements God established with Abraham. This shows us: God may call and equip for ministry those who are not faithful, yet expecting their future obedience to Covenant requirements, at their peril. This contradicts thought which says only the faithful should be considered for ministry, when the opposite is shown here in the Book. Would this kind of wisdom of God be questioned by Man? It is not surprising then to see many called to ministry today, doing miracles yet not obedient to NT Covenant requirements (as Moses had done before he was faithful to the Covenant). Lesson to be learned: Doing miracles does not testify that everything preached/believed by the miracle worker is truth.

In Col2.11,12 Paul compares the circumcision of the heart (being buried with Jesus in water baptism) with fleshly circumcision, insinuating that the heart circumcision was the NT equivalent to the OT sign of circumcision. Moses's experience of doing miracles before he was faithful/obedient to the covenant answers the question: 'Why are there people who reject scriptural baptism/truth powerfully used in ministry?' Answer: God places as much trust in Man, perhaps more, than Man places in him, calling and equipping for ministry some who are not faithful to the NT covenant, hoping for their future obedience. What an astounding grace God shows, who grants such gifts with such a trust in Man! Many a Man today might not do the same. Does the Lord demonstrate to us there may be a time to be as trusting in others as he was with unfaithful/unobedient Moses? If nothing else it demonstrates a need to be prayerful in any decisions made, trusting in the Lord's wisdom and guidance, and not in our own wisdom, which is likely not the same as his.

[Amanah]

Hi Don!
Are you saying that unfaithful disobedient people can be appointed to ministry? Not sure what you mean.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Hi Don!
Are you saying that unfaithful disobedient people can be appointed to ministry? Not sure what you mean.

Hi, Amanah.

Reading Ex3,4 would answer that question with a yes. Its against my theology but I can't argue with the Word.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Hi, Amanah.

Reading Ex3,4 would answer that question with a yes. Its against my theology but I can't argue with the Word.

You said "yes" to the question "Can disobedient people be appointed to ministry."

So there is your point in this thread, and it plainly confirms what everyone has said about your position. We come to these conclusions because you plainly state them.

Nobody here disagrees that a person can be CALLED BY GOD while in a condition of disobedience. In fact that is the essence of conversion. But the Bible instructs the church on who can be ordained, so we go with that as the rule to follow for appointing leadership.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You said "yes" to the question "Can disobedient people be appointed to ministry."

So there is your point in this thread, and it plainly confirms what everyone has said about your position. We come to these conclusions because you plainly state them.

Nobody here disagrees that a person can be CALLED BY GOD while in a condition of disobedience. In fact that is the essence of conversion. But the Bible instructs the church on who can be ordained, so we go with that as the rule to follow for appointing leadership.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I have yet to learn how to do quotes. You said "yes" to the question "Can disobedient people be appointed to ministry." The full question from post 2 is "Are you saying that unfaithful disobedient people can be appointed to ministry?" The answer you quote looks different than the answer given by me when taken out of context, which most good Bible students, which you are included in, know better than to do. The full answer, which you must have read but didn't quote fully was "Reading Ex3,4 would answer that question with a yes. Its against my theology but I can't argue with the Word." Post 3. This leads me to conclude that you will make every effort and use any means possible to discredit another. What motivates such actions?

Anyone following the Lord's example, whose example I assume you desire to follow, could on occasion, listening to his leading by placing in leadership positions, appoint and empower for service some who are not faithful, trusting as the Lord did for Moses in Ex3,4, for their future faithfulness. As I stated in Post3, that its been against my theology and sense to do so but who am I, or who would you be if you said God's example was a bunch of phooey. I won't do so and hope you say the same, because God doesn't make mistakes and didn't make a mistake in Ex3,4. But by no means should this be the rule to always follow in every appointment. But it must be allowed that the Lord may direct on certain occasions to do similarly as he had done with Moses.

So there is your point in this thread, and it plainly confirms what everyone has said about your position. We come to these conclusions because you plainly state them. But plz, don't put words in my mouth that I contend that leaders should appoint such disobedient/unfaithful people
without prayer or his leading. I have never said any such thing and any who say so are jumping to conclusions or misinterpretting my words. As the wise person you are, you must discern what another writes of but not jump to conclusions about something they never explicitely make. If something is unclear in what you perceive they write of, then you have the privilege of asking for clarification without accusing them of error. But to deny that the Lord appointed and anointed with miraculous power Moses when he was disobedient/unfaithful to the covenant is denying what the scripture plainly shows. Do you do so now?

Nobody here disagrees that a person can be CALLED BY GOD while in a condition of disobedience. In fact that is the essence of conversion. But the Bible instructs the church on who can be ordained, so we go with that as the rule to follow for appointing leadership. Agreed. Any wise leader will appoint faithful obedient people to leadership positions. That is just common sense at work, which should be embraced. Well yes, but also allowing for the Lord, in like wisdom as shown in Ex3,4, to lead in showing that some may be appointed to leadership, as was done with unfaithful/disobedient Moses. To reject the possibility of such leading would be rejecting the Lord who exemplifies it. That he does so is plainly seen everyday in the thousands and thousands of Jesus-name-baptism-rejecting preachers, who collectively perform miracles everyday. This plainly shows that God does call disobedient/unfaithful people to leadership positions, even doing miracles by them. It is God not these truth rejectors who does the miracle at their disobedient hands, Surely you must see this as a reality. And what is your explanation as to why God performs miracles at the hands of the disa=obedient? The story of Moses in Ex3,4 shows the 'why it is possible that truth rejectors are used of God'. (Even if only 5% of reported miracles are true it still takes nothing from the truth that 5% are truth-rejecting-miracle workers, because it is God who has empowered them. This empowering shows God's great grace and trust in Man. It magnifies to great heights the Lord's goodness.

.

Plz answer my question from post 43.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

.

Plz answer my question from post 43.

Please learn to format your posts correctly.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

In Ex3,4 God calls and miracle-equips Moses for the Exodus ministry, but then attempts to kill him as he journeys to fulfill his calling. And why? Ex4.26 because of the circumcision. Moses hadn't been faithful/obedient to the Covenant requirements God established with Abraham. This shows us: God may call and equip for ministry those who are not faithful, yet expecting their future obedience to Covenant requirements, at their peril. This contradicts thought which says only the faithful should be considered for ministry, when the opposite is shown here in the Book. Would this kind of wisdom of God be questioned by Man? It is not surprising then to see many called to ministry today, doing miracles yet not obedient to NT Covenant requirements (as Moses had done before he was faithful to the Covenant). Lesson to be learned: Doing miracles does not testify that everything preached/believed by the miracle worker is truth.

In Col2.11,12 Paul compares the circumcision of the heart (being buried with Jesus in water baptism) with fleshly circumcision, insinuating that the heart circumcision was the NT equivalent to the OT sign of circumcision. Moses's experience of doing miracles before he was faithful/obedient to the covenant answers the question: 'Why are there people who reject scriptural baptism/truth powerfully used in ministry?' Answer: God places as much trust in Man, perhaps more, than Man places in him, calling and equipping for ministry some who are not faithful to the NT covenant, hoping for their future obedience. What an astounding grace God shows, who grants such gifts with such a trust in Man! Many a Man today might not do the same. Does the Lord demonstrate to us there may be a time to be as trusting in others as he was with unfaithful/unobedient Moses? If nothing else it demonstrates a need to be prayerful in any decisions made, trusting in the Lord's wisdom and guidance, and not in our own wisdom, which is likely not the same as his.

So how does this apply to today’s church?

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So how does this apply to today’s church?

The Lord will in his wisdom decide how he wants to apply this today, as he had done with choosing a disobedient Exodus leader. That he has done something similar today is evident from the testimonies of miracles from many ministers who reject Jesus name baptism. Don't miss the point that it was God, not Man, who called Moses, even while knowing that he had not been obedient to the covenant. Also true is that it is God who performs the miracles at the hands of those who reject Jesus name baptism. The Lord will continue to do what he thinks is best even while contradicting our theological (mis)understandings of it. God wants all to respond to the command for Jesus name baptism. Any who refuse do so, do so at their own peril, but may not prevent them from performing miracles. The story of Moses's experience should be shared with those miracle workers who assume that because they perform miracles they think their erroneous baptism theology (among other false doctrines) must be acceptable. The Bible shows us that Moses performed miracles while disobedient, even as these do. Thus, miracles do not necessarily testify to the validity of held doctrines of the miracle worker, nor necessarily of the character of the one used to perform them. The Moses story and today's non-Jesus name baptism miracle workers shows God's great trust and grace as placed in Man.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

The Moses story and today's non-Jesus name baptism miracle workers shows God's great trust and grace as placed in Man.

Seems to me the Moses story shows people called by God to ministry better dot their I's and cross their T's and get it right.