Dead Sea Scroll translation

[coksiw]

I found this very interesting from Wikipedia.

text-comparison.jpg

I got this translation of the DSS: https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Sea-Scro.../dp/0060600640

I'm using it to compare text as I study the OT books. I appreciate the LXX but prefer to have Hebrew texts instead. I'm very glad the DSS came to light.

What are you thoughts?

[Amanah]

Scholars who were well versed in Hebrew and Greek produced the LXX which was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles.

Hebrew is a very difficult language to translate into English due to having no vowels and not being as rich a language as Greek or English.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Scholars who were well versed in Hebrew and Greek produced the LXX which was the bible of Jesus and the Apostles.

Hebrew is a very difficult language to translate into English due to having no vowels and not being as rich a language as Greek or English.

I think that the LXX was popular among the Hebrews in Egypt and probably in diasporas, but it was definitely not the Bible of Jesus and the Apostles.

Jesus referred to the law, the psalms and the prophets, which is the Hebrew Bible's division, not the LXX division. Jesus also spoke of jot and tilte, which is a reference to Hebrew. Also there are some literal words recorded from Jesus in Aramaic, which likely was Jesus' main language. Doubtful that Jesus and the Apostles, and even Paul, heard Greek in the synagogues in Palestine. What they likely heard was the Scripture read in Hebrew, and then Targums in Aramaic, as was the custom.

LXX was likely used, but not in all quotes, which can show you the degree to which the writers of the NT followed the LXX, which were mostly Aramaic speakers. Even the LXX quotes don't match 100% with virtually any LXX, but are just "following closely". Also, the LXX we have today is a corrected version of the original by post apostolic early Christians, which could have also been "adjusted" to the NT quotes to a certain extent.

I think what happened was simply the Apostles "targumed" passages from the OT, sometimes literal quotes, sometimes, paraphrases, which was pretty a common practice at the time, and the LXX was used after evaluation in some places.

I do appreciate that the LXX reflects some Hebrew text variants we don't have nowadays available to us, as you can see in the image I posted above.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I found this very interesting from Wikipedia.

Attachment 6655

I got this translation of the DSS: https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Sea-Scro.../dp/0060600640

I'm using it to compare text as I study the OT books. I appreciate the LXX but prefer to have Hebrew texts instead. I'm very glad the DSS came to light.

What are you thoughts?

The provenance of the DSS is very suspect. A lot of forgeries, fakes, frauds, and $$$ involved. Then there is the issue of translation, a whole nother can of worms. Big grains of salt are needed.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The provenance of the DSS is very suspect. A lot of forgeries, fakes, frauds, and $$$ involved. Then there is the issue of translation, a whole nother can of worms. Big grains of salt are needed.

Do you please have some sources I can check out?

What I found was that the collectionist market was hit with lots of DSS fragments out of nowhere in the early 2000 that happened to be forgeries (and some people had paid large amount of money for them), so the idea is that any DSS obtained after 2000 is likely fake. I haven't seen any other information.

[Esaias]

Matt 21:16 Jesus quotes from the Greek instead of the Hebrew. Same in Mark 7:6-8.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Matt 21:16 Jesus quotes from the Greek instead of the Hebrew. Same in Mark 7:6-8.

I have a hard time believing Jesus quoted something in Greek to the chief priests and scribes at the doors of Jerusalem, or to any Jewish crowd in Palestine.

Mat 27:46 KJV - (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Act 21:40 KJV - (40) And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto [them] in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Act 22:2 KJV - (2) (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 26:14 KJV - (14) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

What likely happened was that the Gospel writer translated it from Aramaic to Greek, which in turn, attests the LXX "translation/interpretation" of the Hebrew text in that verse, or that the LXX has a variant reading we don't have, and it is what Matthew testified Jesus quoted.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I have a hard time believing Jesus quoted something in Greek to the chief priests and scribes at the doors of Jerusalem, or to any Jewish crowd in Palestine.

Mat 27:46 KJV - (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Act 21:40 KJV - (40) And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto [them] in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Act 22:2 KJV - (2) (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 26:14 KJV - (14) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

What likely happened was that the Gospel writer translated it from Aramaic to Greek, which in turn, attests the LXX "translation/interpretation" of the Hebrew text in that verse, or that the LXX has a variant reading we don't have, and it is what Matthew testified Jesus quoted.

That being said I like the LXX. I like that there are plenty of copies of it, and it shows a Hebrew variant we don't have and somehow early Christians had, and matches better with the NT quotes. I also like the fact that it has sometimes translations of the Hebrew that reflect the understanding of Hebrew at the time.

I have the Alfred Rahlfs, and the Brenton, and the Apostolic Bible Greek LXX manuscripts and their translations. I consult it sometimes. I still can't get over the fact that it is a translation, and what we would have is a translation of a translation. I can't believe God didn't preserve high quality Hebrew variants for us: Mat 5:18 KJV - (18) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I have the Alfred Rahlfs, and the Brenton, and the Apostolic Bible Greek LXX manuscripts and their translations.

To his credit, Charles van der Poole of the Apostolic Polyglot Bible has been willing to write on the Sinaiticus fake (my word.)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I have a hard time believing Jesus quoted something in Greek to the chief priests and scribes at the doors of Jerusalem, or to any Jewish crowd in Palestine.

Mat 27:46 KJV - (46) And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Act 21:40 KJV - (40) And when he had given him licence, Paul stood on the stairs, and beckoned with the hand unto the people. And when there was made a great silence, he spake unto [them] in the Hebrew tongue, saying,
Act 22:2 KJV - (2) (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,)
Act 26:14 KJV - (14) And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [it is] hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

What likely happened was that the Gospel writer translated it from Aramaic to Greek, which in turn, attests the LXX "translation/interpretation" of the Hebrew text in that verse, or that the LXX has a variant reading we don't have, and it is what Matthew testified Jesus quoted.

So, you believe that the New Testament is a translation of manuscripts we no longer have? Wow, there are Atheists, Muslims, Rabbis, and Mormons who love to hear that.