The Serpent Deceived Me! What Saith The Forum?

[BrainWashed]

Some have considered this to be a defect while others have labeled it a strength. My brain has a tendency to collect and analyze data, and then my brain proceeds to analyze the initial analysis.

I was reading in Genesis 3:13-14 where the serpent deceived Eve and thereafter God cursed the serpent (e.g. crawl on belly, eat dust).

What was the correlation between the serpent and Satan? I’m sure there were a multitude of hosts that Lucifer could have utilized. And even if Lucifer embodied a serpent, why curse the serpent over something that’s not necessarily its fault?

Here’s what I found interesting.

I realize that Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam. In addition, the bible never indicated a female’s role of submission until after God pronounced judgement over the women.

Notice, God tells Eve in Genesis 3:16, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” The women wasn’t ruled over by man until after the women was deceived by the serpent.

This causes me to believe that even though Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam, Adam and Eve were co-equal in authority prior to her being deceived.

Let us ponder this question.

Why would God impose submission as a penalty to the women for Eve’s disobedience if submission was already present between Adam and Eve?

The only method of introducing submission roles between two individuals is if there’s no submission role present.

If there’s no submission role present, that must concluded that there was co-equal authority between the two individuals until a higher authority established roles of submission between the two.

What saith the forum?

[n david]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

Some have considered this to be a defect while others have labeled it a strength. My brain has a tendency to collect and analyze data, and then my brain proceeds to analyze the initial analysis.

I was reading in Genesis 3:13-14 where the women deceived Eve and thereafter God cursed the serpent (e.g. crawl on belly, eat dust).

What was the correlation between the serpent and Satan? I’m sure there were a multitude of hosts that Lucifer could have utilized. And even if Lucifer embodied a serpent, why curse the serpent over something that’s not necessarily its fault?

Here’s what I found interesting.

I realize that Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam. In addition, the bible never indicated a female’s role of submission until after God pronounced judgement over the women.

Notice, God tells Eve in Genesis 3:16, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” The women wasn’t ruled over by man until after the women was deceived by the serpent.

This causes me to believe that even though Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam, Adam and Eve were co-equal in authority prior to her being deceived.

Let us ponder this question.

Why would God impose submission as a penalty to the women for Eve’s disobedience if submission was already present between Adam and Eve?

The only method of introducing submission roles between two individuals is if there’s no submission role present.

If there’s no submission role present, that must concluded that there was co-equal authority between the two individuals until a higher authority established roles of submission between the two.

What saith the forum?

Submission to Adam was Eve's punishment for eating the fruit. God was angry with Eve for ruining the perfect harmony He had with Adam in the garden.

[Esaias]

In 1Corinthians 11:8-9 Paul argues in favour of his doctrine concerning headship and head covering upon the basis of Pre-Fall distinctions between Adam and Eve, including the idea that the man was not made for the woman, but vice versa, indicating a Pre-Fall hierarchy of some kind.

[BrainWashed]

Originally Posted by Esaias

In 1Corinthians 11:8-9 Paul argues in favour of his doctrine concerning headship and head covering upon the basis of Pre-Fall distinctions between Adam and Eve, including the idea that the man was not made for the woman, but vice versa, indicating a Pre-Fall hierarchy of some kind.

1Corinthiians 11:
3-But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
8-For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9-Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I'm in agreement that women was taken from out of man, and that women was created as a helpmate for man. Paul clearly states in verse 3 that the head of women is man, which coincides with God's punishment spoken over women. However, Paul's teachings give no clear indication that men were the head of women prior to Eve's punishment.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

1Corinthiians 11:
3-But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
8-For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9-Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I'm in agreement that women was taken from out of man, and that women was created as a helpmate for man. Paul clearly states in verse 3 that the head of women is man, which coincides with God's punishment spoken over women. However, Paul's teachings give no clear indication that men were the head of women prior to Eve's punishment.

Paul argued for headship BECAUSE the woman was made for the man and not the man for the woman. Thus, for Paul, at least part of the headship stems from a Pre-Fall situation.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

1Corinthiians 11:
3-But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
8-For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9-Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

I'm in agreement that women was taken from out of man, and that women was created as a helpmate for man. Paul clearly states in verse 3 that the head of women is man, which coincides with God's punishment spoken over women. However, Paul's teachings give no clear indication that men were the head of women prior to Eve's punishment.

By simply saying man is not of the woman, after noting Man is head of woman, we see Paul stating headship over woman BEFORE the fall. Woman was made from man before the fall.

[BrainWashed]

MfBlume,

Could Paul's words have simply been for present informational purposes and not reinforcing or referencing head-ship before the fall?

Could Paul have simply meant as followed? (my interpretation in red)


1Coritinthain 11:3
But I want you to realize that (in this present hour as I'm aware) the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


1 Corinthians 11:8
For man was not made from woman (but rather was made from the dust of the ground), but woman (who was made from the rib of man) was from man.


Here's a question for you. If headship (submission) existed between Adam and Eve before the fall, why did Eve's punishment include being ruled over by man? (Gen 3:16)

I simply mean that if Eve was already submitted to Adam, what was God's purpose of verbalizing to Eve that Adam would rule over her? Why was this her punishment for disobedience if she was already submitted to Adam? How was being ruled over by man a punishment for her disobedience if she was already being ruled over by man?

Originally Posted by mfblume

By simply saying man is not of the woman , after noting Man is head of woman, we see Paul stating headship over woman BEFORE the fall. Woman was made from man before the fall.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

MfBlume,

Could Paul's words have simply been for present informational purposes and not reinforcing or referencing head-ship before the fall?

Could Paul have simply meant as followed? (my interpretation in red)


1Coritinthain 11:3
But I want you to realize that (in this present hour as I'm aware) the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.


1 Corinthians 11:8
For man was not made from woman (but rather was made from the dust of the ground), but woman (who was made from the rib of man) was from man.


Here's a question for you. If headship (submission) existed between Adam and Eve before the fall, why did Eve's punishment include being ruled over by man? (Gen 3:16)

I simply mean that if Eve was already submitted to Adam, what was God's purpose of verbalizing to Eve that Adam would rule over her? Why was this her punishment for disobedience if she was already submitted to Adam? How was being ruled over by man a punishment for her disobedience if she was already being ruled over by man?

It's more simple than that. As soon as Paul said there is headship FOR (or BECAUSE) man is not of the woman but the woman is of man, it is basing the issue on creation of woman from man's side before they ever fell. We would not read any reason existed by way of Woman's creation FROM man if there is a headship issue only since the fall.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by BrainWashed

Notice, God tells Eve in Genesis 3:16, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.” The women wasn’t ruled over by man until after the women was deceived by the serpent.

This causes me to believe that even though Eve was created as a helpmate for Adam, Adam and Eve were co-equal in authority prior to her being deceived.

Let us ponder this question.

Why would God impose submission as a penalty to the women for Eve’s disobedience if submission was already present between Adam and Eve?

The only method of introducing submission roles between two individuals is if there’s no submission role present.

If there’s no submission role present, that must concluded that there was co-equal authority between the two individuals until a higher authority established roles of submission between the two.

What saith the forum?

Why did Paul say Adam wasn't deceived in 1 Timothy 2:14?

[BrainWashed]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Why did Paul say Adam wasn't deceived in 1 Timothy 2:14?

Because Adam wasn't deceived?

It was Eve who was deceived and gave Adam fruit to eat. Though Gen 3:6 below reads that, "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it," the scripture doesn't specify that Adam was present during the conversation between the serpent and Eve. He was present with her only at time of eating.

The bible reads that Adam was given fruit to eat by Eve. He had confidence that Eve would provide non-prohibited food to eat and she failed him.

Genesis 3:

6- When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
12- The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”
13- Then the LORD God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?” The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”