JT Pugh on Commitment

[Pastor Keith]

Thought this was a very good and intersting quote from JT Pugh, I don't think that I have ever heard it this way before.

What do you think?

On page 99 in his book the Flesh of God he tells the a story about a conservative church that voted in a talented young man as Pastor. He eventually moved them away from their lifestyle commitments and doctrine. To use his words to liberalize their lifestyle and doctrine.

Yet he wanted them to keep their relationship with Jesus and the church. He expected them to pray, attend church, worship and give. He was startled and puzzeled that within a year people begin to miss church regularly.

This is the quote that really stood out, "I have wondered if he every concluded that it is impossible to trash a commitment sincerely made without damaging or destroying the relationship."

He goes on to say that this is a common thing and principle in every relationship and bonding that is it conmmensurate on commitment.

He follows up by saying that commitiment does not guarantee a relation, but we can be sure that there will not be a strong, meaningful personal relationship without it.

What you think about this?

[berkeley]

Don't give the conservatives fuel for their argument that going lib destroys churches.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

Don't give the conservatives fuel for their argument that going lib destroys churches.

Berkley I thought about that, but someone with JT Pughs credentials and and credibility demands that he is listened to.

He later does go on to say that some churches need to change their doctrines and methods to gain greater revelation and more intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. I am all for this

Yet he is warning that people who in mass or singly leave Apostolic Doctrine or weaken personal commitment for selfish convience it will affect their personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

["GL"]

Originally Posted by keith4him

....someone with JT Pughs credentials and and credibility demands that he is listened to.....

On this we definitely agree.

[Digging4Truth]

This thread goes along with some thoughts I have had lately. These are just thoughts that have been going through my mind as I continue to ponder the direction God would have me go in.

First...

I see more and more that some of the things that were preached to me as heaven & hell issues when I was growing up in Pentecost cannot be substantiated by the word of God as heaven or hell issues.

On the other hand... I see pastors who have seen the same thing and they have completely gone off the deep end with their "liberty" (that is not making light of them... I am just not sure if the definition fits)

I have told my wife lately that I begin to feel that the thing God is looking for is a people who do see that many of these "heaven or hell" issues are, indeed, not heaven or hell issues and yet does not abandon them.

We have seen that what I was always told was "heaven or hell" is, quite often, not biblically based yet we still walk in what we have always walked in.

I see it like this.

What kind of relationship would I have with my wife if I judged the way I was going to live my daily life by this question..."She won't divorce me if I do this"..."She won't divorce me if I do that"

What kind of a relationship would I have if my criteria was what my wife would or would not divorce me over?

I have left what she will or will not divorce me over a long time ago. I now make my decisions on what is pleasing to her. What speaks of my love for her.

Why can we not see a people who understand that this will not send you to hell... that will not send you to hell... but you know... it does please Him. When we come to that realization then we continue to walk in what we know pleases Him and yet we don't send everyone else to hell who is still searching out the relationship for themselves.

Rather than saying that taking away these commitments caused them to fail and falter... could it be that taking away these commitments revealed the true relationship that was there... or not there as the case may be.

Could it be that when all of the hell threats are removed that we find that there wasn't much of a relationship there at all.

Or... could this be a case of someone removing commitments that used to hold them together without them replacing it with teaching that re-centers the relationship.

When someone has been raised under a strict "electric fence" boundary of hell threats and then the electric fence is removed then there has to be enough compassion there to first train them to form their own boundaries or you will lose them to pastures so big they can't find their way back.

When they have lived a life of such tightly drawn boundaries then we find that, often, they have no ability to realize their own boundaries. So removing that commitment level without first reviving within them their own latent ability to figure these things out for themselves is unwise and incomplete.

If an animal has been raised in captivity then you can't just let them out into the wild because they have lost the ability to fend for themselves. Captivity is better than freedom without the proper knowledge necessary to work it out for yourself. When you have never had to make one decision all your spiritual life because it is all laid out for you step by step then why are we surprised when someone is "set free" and ends up in a bad place. There has to be training going on that will help them regain an ability to work out their salvations for themselves.

When that is in place then freedom is safe, wonderful and real. The blessing is them complete.

I have not yet expressed my thoughts to my own satisfaction but this is getting far too long so I will have to stop for now.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

This thread goes along with some thoughts I have had lately. These are just thoughts that have been going through my mind as I continue to ponder the direction God would have me go in.

First...

I see more and more that some of the things that were preached to me as heaven & hell issues when I was growing up in Pentecost cannot be substantiated by the word of God as heaven or hell issues.

On the other hand... I see pastors who have seen the same thing and they have completely gone off the deep end with their "liberty" (that is not making light of them... I am just not sure if the definition fits)

I have told my wife lately that I begin to feel that the thing God is looking for is a people who do see that many of these "heaven or hell" issues are, indeed, not heaven or hell issues and yet does not abandon them.

We have seen that what I was always told was "heaven or hell" is, quite often, not biblically based yet we still walk in what we have always walked in.

I see it like this.

What kind of relationship would I have with my wife if I judged the way I was going to live my daily life by this question..."She won't divorce me if I do this"..."She won't divorce me if I do that"

What kind of a relationship would I have if my criteria was what my wife would or would not divorce me over?

I have left what she will or will not divorce me over a long time ago. I now make my decisions on what is pleasing to her. What speaks of my love for her.

Why can we not see a people who understand that this will not send you to hell... that will not send you to hell... but you know... it does please Him. When we come to that realization then we continue to walk in what we know pleases Him and yet we don't send everyone else to hell who is still searching out the relationship for themselves.

Rather than saying that taking away these commitments caused them to fail and falter... could it be that taking away these commitments revealed the true relationship that was there... or not there as the case may be.

Could it be that when all of the hell threats are removed that we find that there wasn't much of a relationship there at all.

Or... could this be a case of someone removing commitments that used to hold them together without them replacing it with teaching that re-centers the relationship.

When someone has been raised under a strict "electric fence" boundary of hell threats and then the electric fence is removed then there has to be enough compassion there to first train them to form their own boundaries or you will lose them to pastures so big they can't find their way back.

When they have lived a life of such tightly drawn boundaries then we find that, often, they have no ability to realize their own boundaries. So removing that commitment level without first reviving within them their own latent ability to figure these things out for themselves is unwise and incomplete.

If an animal has been raised in captivity then you can't just let them out into the wild because they have lost the ability to fend for themselves. Captivity is better than freedom without the proper knowledge necessary to work it out for yourself. When you have never had to make one decision all your spiritual life because it is all laid out for you step by step then why are we surprised when someone is "set free" and ends up in a bad place. There has to be training going on that will help them regain an ability to work out their salvations for themselves.

When that is in place then freedom is safe, wonderful and real. The blessing is them complete.

I have not yet expressed my thoughts to my own satisfaction but this is getting far too long so I will have to stop for now.

excellent points, JT Pugh would be proud and most like would agree.

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

This thread goes along with some thoughts I have had lately. These are just thoughts that have been going through my mind as I continue to ponder the direction God would have me go in.

First...

I see more and more that some of the things that were preached to me as heaven & hell issues when I was growing up in Pentecost cannot be substantiated by the word of God as heaven or hell issues.

On the other hand... I see pastors who have seen the same thing and they have completely gone off the deep end with their "liberty" (that is not making light of them... I am just not sure if the definition fits)

I have told my wife lately that I begin to feel that the thing God is looking for is a people who do see that many of these "heaven or hell" issues are, indeed, not heaven or hell issues and yet does not abandon them.

We have seen that what I was always told was "heaven or hell" is, quite often, not biblically based yet we still walk in what we have always walked in.

I see it like this.

What kind of relationship would I have with my wife if I judged the way I was going to live my daily life by this question..."She won't divorce me if I do this"..."She won't divorce me if I do that"

What kind of a relationship would I have if my criteria was what my wife would or would not divorce me over?

I have left what she will or will not divorce me over a long time ago. I now make my decisions on what is pleasing to her. What speaks of my love for her.

Why can we not see a people who understand that this will not send you to hell... that will not send you to hell... but you know... it does please Him. When we come to that realization then we continue to walk in what we know pleases Him and yet we don't send everyone else to hell who is still searching out the relationship for themselves.

Rather than saying that taking away these commitments caused them to fail and falter... could it be that taking away these commitments revealed the true relationship that was there... or not there as the case may be.

Could it be that when all of the hell threats are removed that we find that there wasn't much of a relationship there at all.

Or... could this be a case of someone removing commitments that used to hold them together without them replacing it with teaching that re-centers the relationship.

When someone has been raised under a strict "electric fence" boundary of hell threats and then the electric fence is removed then there has to be enough compassion there to first train them to form their own boundaries or you will lose them to pastures so big they can't find their way back.

When they have lived a life of such tightly drawn boundaries then we find that, often, they have no ability to realize their own boundaries. So removing that commitment level without first reviving within them their own latent ability to figure these things out for themselves is unwise and incomplete.

If an animal has been raised in captivity then you can't just let them out into the wild because they have lost the ability to fend for themselves. Captivity is better than freedom without the proper knowledge necessary to work it out for yourself. When you have never had to make one decision all your spiritual life because it is all laid out for you step by step then why are we surprised when someone is "set free" and ends up in a bad place. There has to be training going on that will help them regain an ability to work out their salvations for themselves.

When that is in place then freedom is safe, wonderful and real. The blessing is them complete.

I have not yet expressed my thoughts to my own satisfaction but this is getting far too long so I will have to stop for now.

Very well articulated, digger....as usual.

I especially liked the reference to marriage.

What kind of relationship would I have with my wife if I judged the way I was going to live my daily life by this question..."She won't divorce me if I do this"..."She won't divorce me if I do that"

What kind of a relationship would I have if my criteria was what my wife would or would not divorce me over?

I have left what she will or will not divorce me over a long time ago. I now make my decisions on what is pleasing to her. What speaks of my love for her.

TO THE THREAD:

My only comment to much of what is considered "man-made" is as always:

Many of today's boundaries are based on BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE.

Do I agree with all of what might be considered so, especially by "UCs", no, but a great many are sound applications of BIBLICAL PRINCIPLE for times such as these.

Another point, while I'm at it:

Our Salvation is not solely "work-based", however, anyone that doesn't understand that "works" are a part of genuine, complete, and successful salvation is NOT reading their BIBLE.

Which leads me to yet another point:

People that leave boundaries and then leave Christ were not rooted in Christ, neither His Word, nor did they have an understanding of the PRINCIPLES of their boundaries.

It's one thing to teach "do's" and "don'ts," and obey "do's" and "don'ts," but another thing to understand and/or teach implicitly the "whys."

[berkeley]

"I have wondered if he every concluded that it is impossible to trash a commitment sincerely made without damaging or destroying the relationship."

I'm not really a deep thinker anymore.. but I'll try to express myself::::::

The peoples commitment to the UC lifestyle was tied into their relationship with God.
Throwing this out, the people threw away their walk with the Lord.
The result, there was no real commitment. My thought, if their commitment
was tied into the standards then it was not a real commitment. Their focus
was a works based salvation. When they had no works to perform,
they lost their purpose.

[Pastor Keith]

Originally Posted by Berkeley

I'm not really a deep thinker anymore.. but I'll give it a shot::::::

The peoples commitment to the UC lifestyle was tied into their relationship with God.
Throwing this out, the people threw away their walk with the Lord.
The result, there was no real commitment. My thought, if their commitment
was tied into the standards then it was not a real commitment. Their focus
was a works based salvation. When they had no works to perform,
they lost their purpose.

Ok, good start, I agree that a relationship based on works is no real relationship, we have entered into a walk of faith but lets draw some analogies from marriage.

A marriage starts with some commitments, faithfulness and fidelity, love, etc.

Part of that commitment is the husband being a good provider, being home nightly instead of hanging out with the boys, the wife being a good homemaker, washing the clothes, keeping the home tidy etc.

After some time, if the husband starts to head to the watering hole instead of coming home as was his custom, do you not think it will eventually affect the relationship that was based on love, fidelity and faithfulness?

By the way Berkley I am having a arguement with myself as I go through this.

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by keith4him

Ok, good start, I agree that a relationship based on works is no real relationship, we have entered into a walk of faith but lets draw some analogies from marriage.

A marriage starts with some commitments, faithfulness and fidelity, love, etc.

Part of that commitment is the husband being a good provider, being home nightly instead of hanging out with the boys, the wife being a good homemaker, washing the clothes, keeping the home tidy etc.

After some time, if the husband starts to head to the watering hole instead of coming home as was his custom, do you not think it will eventually affect the relationship that was based on love, fidelity and faithfulness?

By the way Berkley I am having a arguement with myself as I go through this.

Yes, I believe some things are required of the saints of God. But most things that people make an issue over are not even in the book. Why are you arguing with yourself? Sounds as if you are going through a transition.