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Old 10-23-2012, 10:31 AM
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Two Questions for Bible Scholars

Well, even if you don't claim to be a Bible scholar, I would love to hear your thoughts on this one.

Two questions:

1. If someone were to ask you the most solemn scripture in the NT, what would it be? The one scripture that stops you in your tracks, and makes you consider your ways, and perhaps change them?

Personally, in the NT, the scripture that always causes me to tremble, is the one where Jesus says... Depart from me, I never knew you. I never want to hear that from my Lord.

2. What is the most compelling solemn scripture in the OT?

This question/scripture below is the real premise for this post. I have never completely understood it, and would love to hear all points of view on this one.

The scripture I am referring to is actually the entire last chapter of Isaiah, Isaiah 66. If you read the entire chapter, and the one before it to get context, it is helpful.

I will post the last part of it, and highlight the part that I don't understand.
Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
What is the significance of the phrase "they that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abominations, and the mouse, shall be consumed together." ?

All thoughts, opinions, and scripture backed references welcomed. Thanks!

Last edited by KeptByTheWord; 10-23-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:19 AM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

A reference to Ashtera worship,
Ashtera poles. Idol worship.
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Old 10-23-2012, 11:26 AM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

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A reference to Ashtera worship,
Ashtera poles. Idol worship.
What time period do you think this is told about?
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Old 10-23-2012, 07:51 PM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

Thoughts anyone else?
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:04 PM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

It's law against Christmas trees and eating ham.......
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:53 PM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

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It's law against Christmas trees and eating ham.......
Really? How so... ?
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Old 10-24-2012, 11:13 AM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

Kept, You got it, as the most awful thing to hear. I don’t want to ever hear this either.

Depart from me, I never knew you. I never want to hear that from my Lord.

And the second one,
Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory


I believe this is just after the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty

When the One World Religion is made the official Religion of the One World Government, it will basically be all Pagan Religions combined. At the time of the Battle, the Church will be gone, and there wull be 2 groups of people left on the earth.

1. The Woman, Israel of Rev 12, which God has been protecting in the Wilderness for 3.5 yrs.
2. And those worshiping the Beast. Although, their first allegiance has to be toward the Beast, evidently they haven’t left their Pagan worship. It could be tree worship, like we see the tree huggers today. But I believe the telltale sign, is the ‘mouse’ Not sure where it is, but I believe there is something else in the OT, concerning the mouse.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God
.
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Old 10-23-2012, 09:50 PM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

Sigh. Groan...

I guess no one wants to venture a thought?
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:07 PM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

Renee,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate it.

To paraphrase your thoughts, you believe that the Gentile church will have already been taken out of the earth, and this passage is referencing the Israelites who are left on the earth?

I have gone to the Jewish version of the OT to see how their translation reads. I will post it here....

Isaiah 66: 1 "Heaven is my throne," says ADONAI, "and the earth is my footstool. What kind of house could you build for me? What sort of place could you devise for my rest?
2 Didn't I myself make all these things? This is how they all came to be," says ADONAI. "The kind of person on whom I look with favor is one with a poor and humble spirit, who trembles at my word.
3 Those others might as well kill a person as an ox, as well break a dog's neck as sacrifice a lamb, as well offer pig's blood as offer a grain offering, as well bless an idol as burn incense. Just as these have chosen their ways and enjoy their disgusting practices,
4 so I will enjoy making fools of them, and bring on them the very things they fear. For when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear. Instead they did what was evil in my sight and chose what did not please me."
5 Hear the word of ADONAI, you who tremble at his word: "Your brothers, who hate you and reject you because of my name, have said: 'Let ADONAI be glorified, so we can see your joy.' But they will be put to shame."
6 That uproar in the city, that sound from the temple, is the sound of ADONAI repaying his foes what they deserve.
7 Before going into labor, she gave birth; before her pains came, she delivered a male child.
8 Who ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Is a country born in one day? Is a nation brought forth all at once? For as soon as Tziyon went into labor, she brought forth her children.
9 "Would I let the baby break through and not be born?" asks ADONAI. "Would I, who cause the birth, shut the womb?" asks your God.
10 Rejoice with Yerushalayim! Be glad with her, all you who love her! Rejoice, rejoice with her, all of you who mourned for her;
11 so that you nurse and are satisfied by her comforting breast, drinking deeply and delighting in the overflow of her glory.
12 For ADONAI says, "I will spread shalom over her like a river, and the wealth of nations like a flooding stream; you will nurse and be carried in her arm and cuddled in her lap.
13 Like someone comforted by his mother, I will comfort you; in Yerushalayim you will be comforted."
14 Your heart will rejoice at the sight, your bodies will flourish like newly sprouted grass. It will be known that the hand of ADONAI is with his servants; but with his enemies, his fury.
15 For - look! - ADONAI will come in fire, and his chariots will be like the whirlwind, to render his anger furiously, his rebuke with blazing fire.
16 For ADONAI will judge all humanity with fire and with the sword, and those slain by ADONAI will be many.
17 "Those who consecrate and purify themselves in order to enter the gardens, then follow the one who was already there, eating pig meat, reptiles and mice, will all be destroyed together," says ADONAI.
18 "For I [know] their deeds and their thoughts. "[The time] is coming when I will gather together all nations and languages. They will come and see my glory,
19 and I will give them a sign. I will send some of their survivors to the nations of Tarshish, Pul, Lud (these are archers), Tuval, Greece and more distant coasts, where they have neither heard of my fame nor seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory in these nations;
20 and they will bring all your kinsmen out of all the nations as an offering to ADONAI - on horses, in chariots, in wagons, on mules, on camels - to my holy mountain Yerushalayim," says ADONAI, "just as the people of Isra'el themselves bring their offerings in clean vessels to the house of ADONAI.
21 I will also take cohanim and L'vi'im from them," says ADONAI.
22 "For just as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making will continue in my presence," says ADONAI, "so will your descendants and your name continue.
23 "Every month on Rosh-Hodesh and every week on Shabbat, everyone living will come to worship in my presence," says ADONAI. 24
"As they leave, they will look on the corpses of the people who rebelled against me. For their worm will never die, and their fire will never be quenched; but they will be abhorrent to all humanity." ["Every month on Rosh-Hodesh and every week on Shabbat, everyone living will come to worship in my presence," says ADONAI.]


It says that Adonai will judge all humanity for eating pig meat, reptiles and mice. And that every month they will worship on the new moon, and every week on Sabbath.

My question is this... it sounds as though kosher laws, and Sabbath keeping will still be important for the Lord, even in the last days. Should this be something the Gentiles should be concerned about? Will we be judged, as the Israelites will be?
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:50 AM
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Re: Two Questions for Bible Scholars

Quote:
Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord View Post
I will post the last part of it, and highlight the part that I don't understand.
Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.18For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

19And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

20And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

21And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD.

22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
What is the significance of the phrase "they that sanctify themselves and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abominations, and the mouse, shall be consumed together." ?

All thoughts, opinions, and scripture backed references welcomed. Thanks!
Hi KBTW,

These things require research. I found this note by Adam Clarke:
The Syrians worshipped a god called Adad, Plin. Nat. Hist. 37:11; Macrob. Sat. 1:23. They held him to be the highest and greatest of the gods, and to be the same with Jupiter and the sun; and the name Adad, says Macrobius, signifies one; as likewise does the word Achad in Isaiah. Many learned men therefore have supposed, and with some probability, that the prophet means the same pretended deity. אחד achad, in the Syrian and Chaldean dialects, is חד chad; and perhaps by reduplication of the last letter to express perfect unity, it may have become חדד chadad, not improperly expressed by Macrobius Adad, without the aspirate. It was also pronounced by the Syrians themselves, with a weaker aspirate, הדד hadad, as in Benhadad, Hadadezer, names of their kings, which were certainly taken from their chief object of worship. This seems to me to be a probable account of this name.


"Behind one tree in the midst": so Aben Ezra supplies it. Some take Achad, rendered "one", to be the name of an idol. Macrobius (d) says, the Assyrians worshipped the sun under the name of Adad, which signifies "one"; him they adore as a most powerful deity; the same perhaps, with the Adodus of Sanchoniatho (e), whom he calls the king of the gods; and the Adadus of Pliny (f), the god of the Syrians, from whom the gem "adadunephros" has its name.
Purifying in Gardens would be the pools they had in gardens for a religious ritual of cleansing which was pagan.

When it says BEHIND ONE TREE, the Hebrew word for ONE is 'echâd which scholars think may refer to ADAD, the false god.

Here is the LITERAL translation by YOUNG.
Isa 66:17 Those sanctifying and cleansing themselves at the gardens, After Ahad in the midst, Eating flesh of the sow, And of the abomination, and of the mouse, Together are consumed, An affirmation of Jehovah.
The Contemporary English Version reads:
Isa 66:17 Some of you get yourselves ready and go to a garden to worship a foreign goddess. You eat the meat of pigs, lizards, and mice. But I, the LORD, will destroy you for this.
John Gill noted: eating of swine's flesh, and the mouse, were forbidden by the law of Moses, Lev_11:7 and some think by the "abomination" is meant the "weasel", since that is mentioned in the above law with the "mouse"; though it may be rather things offered to idols, or blood, are designed. Mice have been eaten, at least some sort of them, as the dormouse, by some people, particularly the Romans, and counted delicious food, as Sanctius upon the place, from various authors, has showed;
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