What? No "free will?"

[samuelofisrael]

Two major views stated as found in a source. First, the 5 Points of Apostolic Doctrines.

Calvinism

T = Total depravity/ Total inability. Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not -- indeed he cannot -- choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ -- it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation -- it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

U = Unconditional Election. God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

L = Limited Atonement. Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

I = Irresistable Grace. In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be and often is, rejected; whereas the internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

P = Perseverance of the Saints. All who were chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end. According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

[samuelofisrael]

Now the "other" major view among Christian people. Also from a source.

Arminianism

D = Depravity (Partial depravity or Dead, but somehow alive). Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does so in such a manner as not to interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner possesses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; It is man's contribution to salvation.

A = Arbitrary Selection (Abolition of True Grace). God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was termined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

I = Inequitable Limitation (of Christ's selection). Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe in Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condtition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

S = Sovereignty (of the sinner). The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) precedes and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Y = Yielding Eternal Uncertainty. Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ -- that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost. According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) -- man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.
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[bbyrd009]

Hi, Samuel! Coupla heady threads here,
I'll hafta come back when they finish loading, lol-
(Shred ya later)

[Sam]

I've heard of the TULIP like that but never the DAISY.

Is this a theological thread or a horticultural thread?

[samuelofisrael]

Originally Posted by Sam

I've heard of the TULIP like that but never the DAISY.

Is this a theological thread or a horticultural thread?

I have to admit, it was my first acquaintance with the term.

[houston]

I'm a partial calvinist. The bible states that GOD gave every man a measure of faith. It was given to us by God, but it is up to us to use it. Faith is not our gift to God.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

I'm a partial calvinist. The bible states that GOD gave every man a measure of faith. It was given to us by God, but it is up to us to use it. Faith is not our gift to God.

When did He do that?

And when it says 'every man' does it mean the same thing as when it says 'a decree from Caesar that all the world should be taxed?'

It also says 'all men have not faith'...

[houston]

I have yet to see Arminianism represented by an Arminian. So much for fair and balanced.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by houston

I have yet to see Arminianism represented by an Arminian. So much for fair and balanced.

How about a semi-Pelagian?

I'm your huckleberry...

[KeptByTheWord]

I'd never before heard of the terms "Tulip" and "Daisy" in reference to Calvinism and Armenism.

But, I've always wondered about this passage of scripture in Romans 9:18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy and whom he will he hardeneth."

Romans 9:21 "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"

I think this passage is where Calvin built his doctrine of there being an "elect" whom God has chosen. It is difficult to wrap your mind around this thought, and take it home, and make it personal.

Apparently God does harden hearts, as in Pharaoh, Esau, and Judas... and with that being the case, maybe .... Hitler, Stalin... some other renegades through history, in order to perfect and strengthen the church, and fulfill his long-range plan for His people?

I have to believe that God is soverign, and if we believe He created this world, knowing the end of it before He started it, then He knew all about me, and the decisions I would make before I was ever born.

Romans 9:16 "So then, it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

We must remember that God has shown us mercy, and that is the only reason we have today what we do....

Romans 9:14 "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on him whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

Yet in the next chapter over, Paul writes these words in Romans 10:13 "For WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED."

So perhaps God hardens the hearts of leaders in our world to fulfill His divine purpose, and yet, as a direct contrast to that statement, Paul says "WHOSOEVER" ... that means anyone with faith in their hearts can call upon a merciful God, and receive salvation.