justification before pentecost

[Dedicated Mind]

i'm reading dkb's justification and the holy spirit. i'm not yet finished, but he seems to be saying that we are made righteous by faith in christ. this righteousness is a work of the blood and spirit of jesus in the life of the believer. so it is the holy spirit working righteousness from the point of faith not at spirit baptism evidenced by tongues. so can believers be made righteous by the spirit at faith before tongues? if not, how were believers made righteous before the spirit outpouring in the early 1900's?

[Dedicated Mind]

if abraham was justified by faith and made righteous without the baptism of the holy spirit, why can't modern believers in christ receive the same righteousness by faith before or without the spirit baptism?

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

if abraham was justified by faith and made righteous without the baptism of the holy spirit, why can't modern believers in christ receive the same righteousness by faith before or without the spirit baptism?

Your question is likened to one asking why they can't slay a lamb and offer it's blood upon an altar as a means of securing forgiveness of their sins; a common ritual under the terms of the old covenant (the Mosiac Law, as it were).

All of the things which one reads about in the Old Testament were the means which God instituted for man to heed and obey, whereby they would obtain righteousness, that is, UNTIL that moment came to pass when He would visit this earth to become the sacrifice whose blood would suffice to remove the eternal devastating affect of sin, once and for all time.

Seeing that Christ Jesus fulfilled all of the terms of God's previous covenant with mankind [a covenant through which Abraham and others obtained a righteous standing with God], and in so doing instituted a new and better covenant, then that which was old has been done away with.

This is why, in our day, righteousness is attained ONLY through obedience to the terms of the "New" covenant, which is plainly revealed in the context of Acts 2:38.

Simply put - there is NO other means of salvation!

[Dedicated Mind]

lafon, there is a verse in scripture that implies that when people had received the holy ghost paul understood that they had been justified by faith. it is the spirit that draws men to god and the spirit that works repentance with godly sorrow. my question is, does the spirit come in to the believer's life before tongues. my current persuasion is yes. i will try to find the verse.

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

lafon, there is a verse in scripture that implies that when people had received the holy ghost paul understood that they had been justified by faith. it is the spirit that draws men to god and the spirit that works repentance with godly sorrow. my question is, does the spirit come in to the believer's life before tongues. my current persuasion is yes. i will try to find the verse.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Seems that the Spirit is present before tongues.....

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

lafon, there is a verse in scripture that implies that when people had received the holy ghost paul understood that they had been justified by faith. it is the spirit that draws men to god and the spirit that works repentance with godly sorrow. my question is, does the spirit come in to the believer's life before tongues. my current persuasion is yes. i will try to find the verse.

To be "justified" implies that one has been declared innocent or guiltless; absolved; acquitted. Surely it could not be expected that God would "justify" a person by faith alone, else many could be said to have received salvation for their soul based upon faith without doing the other things which He demands one do to complete their salvation. While absolutely essential, faith alone is insufficient for salvation; however, it can be said that faith (in its base form which we call believing) will motivate one to undertake the actions which God demands for their salvation, at which time He will give "justify" them by granting unto them the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I am persuaded to believe that the evidence of God having declared one to be "justified" and therefore eligible to become the recipient of His Spirit, is evidenced by the "speaking in tongues" that occurs as a natural consequence of the Spirit's entrance into the soul of the one who receives it. This is to say that both take place simultaneously, not that one precedes the other. Sorta like getting wet, I would say.... one doesn't get wet before they get into the water, but it happens as they enter (that's perhaps a poor analogy, but hope you get its "drift"). The key word is "simultaneous" - something which transpires at the very same moment as another - therefore baptism of the Holy Ghost, accompanied by speaking in other tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, AND God declaring one to be "justified," ALL occur at the same moment. They are NOT separate events, which is to say, one receives "justification" when they first "believed," followed by being baptized with the Spirit, and then afterwards "speaking in other tongues" which serves as evidence of having received the other two things at some previous moment.

I pray that this explanation will enable you to better understand this matter.

[Dedicated Mind]

lafon, thanks for your explanation. I did a little research and found that David Bernard believes that being baptized with the hs is part of justification and he believes in the initial evidence of tongues as the sign of the hs baptism. That settles it for me. My only question is, how were people saved before the 1900's outpouring? I guess they are judged as individuals and their relationship to God.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Dedicated Mind

My only question is, how were people saved before the 1900's outpouring? I guess they are judged as individuals and their relationship to God.

DM, although in the minds of many of the "younger generation" I am quite the ancient fellow, nevertheless, I am not quite old enough to have known anyone that lived "before the 1900's outpouring," so I am unable to answer that! With regards to how God will judge individuals who did live during those days, I am confident that He will use the same criterion which He must use for judging everyone - the things which are found written in the book; the Bible.

The only thing I would venture to express concerning the manner in which God will judge us all, is that He must do so in strict accordance to the words of Psalm 145:17 - "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works." Simply interpreted IMHO, God must judge everyone equally; not giving preferencial treatment to any, for any reason, except, of course, to all those who have taken heed to and obeyed those things which He demands of them to obtain His glorious salvation - which is all contained in Acts 2:38.

[TyronePalmer]

Great comments and explanations from Lafon! Thank you so much Lafon, your comments added to my understanding of what justification means.

I would also like to add that the way we enter the New Covenant of God has changed from the way the children of Israel entered into the Old Covenant.

The Israelites received circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh, we receive the circumcision made without hands in the heart by the Spirit, they had to obey the physical Laws of God given to Moses, we are not under the law but grace and we are to obey the law of the Spirit and the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1-2

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

The scripture tells us, that those who are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God.

Also, according to Galatians 4:6-7 the Spirit does not enter the soul, but the heart.

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

The Holy Spirit also bears witness with 'our spirit' that we are children of God.

Romans 8:14-17

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."

What a glorious New Covenant that Jesus purchased for us with His blood on the cross of Calvary! Praise be to God!

[Chateau d'If]

Originally Posted by TyronePalmer

Great comments and explanations from Lafon! Thank you so much Lafon, your comments added to my understanding of what justification means.

I would also like to add that the way we enter the New Covenant of God has changed from the way the children of Israel entered into the Old Covenant.

The Israelites received circumcision in the foreskin of their flesh, we receive the circumcision made without hands in the heart by the Spirit, they had to obey the physical Laws of God given to Moses, we are not under the law but grace and we are to obey the law of the Spirit and the commandments of Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:1-2

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

The scripture tells us, that those who are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God.

Also, according to Galatians 4:6-7 the Spirit does not enter the soul, but the heart.

"And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!” Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."

The Holy Spirit also bears witness with 'our spirit' that we are children of God.

Romans 8:14-17

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."

What a glorious New Covenant that Jesus purchased for us with His blood on the cross of Calvary! Praise be to God!

I appreciate the hard work you put in to this post, but I disagree. The OT saints were not justified by obeying the law of Moses. They were justified by faith in Christ, just as we are.

This is from the NLT, Romans 3

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he declares sinners to be right in his sight when they believe in Jesus.

27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on obeying the law. It is based on faith. 28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.

Later, Paul goes on to say that Abram was justified before circumcision, and that the act of circumcision only served to confirm that he was justified.

Romans 4

11 Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12 And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised.

The truth is, in every era and dispensation the only thing that has ever justified sinful man is faith in Jesus Christ. The OT saints were/are justified based upon a forward looking faith in Christ. They believed God's promises... and He "counted" it to them as righteousness. They looked for a Messiah whose name wasn't even revealed as of yet.

We, on the other hand, look back to Calvary. We have the benefit of historical evidences, the written Word of God, and the baptism of Spirit, but we are still justified the same way-BY FAITH.

Not just any faith, but faith in the Gospel, and the God of the Gospel.