The "Cracky" and "Wacky" Universalism

[Socialite]

To some, the idea of a Final Judgement seems unreasonable. This is where the idea of universalism surfaces. Some contend that those who in this life reject the offer of salvation will, after their death and Christ's second coming, be sobered by their situation and will therefore be reconciled to Christ.

While I won't pretend this is an easy matter to resolve (certainly a couple passages appears contradictory), but I believe we can understand them better in light of all scriptures on that subject. It's never good to form a doctrine on ambiguity.

Contradictory Scriptures?
Phil 2:10-11 "At the name of Jesus every knee (shall) bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Col 1:19-20 "In Christ all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross."

More verses used: Romans 5:18; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22.

To be continued...

[Socialite]

Other scriptures seem to contradict the idea of Universalism though:

Mt 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Also: Mt 8:12, John 3:16, 5:28-29; Romans 2:5; 2 Thess 1:9

Can these apparent contradictions be reconciled (that is the question)? Millard Erickson, says, "A fruitful endeavor here it to interpret the universalistic passages in such a way as to fit with the restrictive ones." So, for example, Phil 2:10-11 and Col 1:19-20 do not say that all will be saved and restored to fellowship with God. They speak only of setting right the disrupted order of the universe, the bringing of all things into the subjection to God. But this could be achieved by forcing the rebels into reluctant submission; it does not necessarily point to an actual return to fellowship.

To give some slack to this post, I will skip over commentary on the other verses for now. I am happy to deal with them though (the universal effect of Adam's sin vs. how that applies to the universal dimension of Christ's work - Rom 5:18 for example). Most of this just requires us to read the preceding and proceeding verses. For example, Romans 5:17 says that "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ." The term "many," rather than "all" is used in verses 15 and 19 --- same restrictive use in 1 Cor 15:22.

Continued...

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Other scriptures seem to contradict the idea of Universalism though:

Mt 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott

Bump for Socialite!

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This verse is the final line in Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats, and many folks believe it is the final word on the fate of unbelievers. Though there is no reference at all concerning the saved or the lost in these scriptures.

What is the true meaning of this parable: What I find is that when we feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, Jesus says, it is as if we are ministering directly to Jesus himself. And when we refuse to minister to the broken and hurting around us, it is as if we are refusing to minister to Jesus himself.

Many are utterly shocked to discover the true nature of their own actions. This verse is a very powerful point about the inclusive character of love and how the interests of Jesus are so closely connected with his love for humanity that any good that befalls them is good that befalls Him, and any evil that befalls "the least of His" is evil that befalls Him.

Most folks consider this context as the final separation of the good and the wicked, and that eternal life is the reward for our good works--even though Paul explicitly denies that that is the case.

"The purpose of the story is to inform us that our actions, for good or ill, are more far reaching than we might have imagined, and that we will be judged accordingly; it is NOT to warn us concerning the ultimate fate of the wicked." T. Talbott

Crakjak, I appreciate your perspective on this, and even the quote by Talbott, but it still falls short IMO.

The idea of "eternal life" in contrast to "eternal/everlasting death" is everywhere in the NT. Yes, the point of the parable is to provoke others to good works, but it also rebukes the Pharisees and those who claimed to be followers of Jesus but did not bear good fruit.

[Socialite]

Eternal Punishment

Not only is the future judgment of unbelievers irreversible, but their punishment is eternal. Annihilationism attempts to refute this, but the biblical evidence is staggering. It contradicts both OT and NT references to the "unending" or "unquenchable" fire. Jesus borrows the imagery of Isa 66:24: "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

Other words are used to reinforce this too:
"Everlasting" "eternal" "forever"

all applied to nouns designating the future state of the wicked: fire or burning (Isa 33:14, Jer 17:4, Mt 18:8, 25:41, Jude 7).

[Socialite]

But the question is asked...

What kind of God is it who is not satisfied by a finite punishment, but makes humans suffer for ever and ever? The punishment seems out of proportion to the sin, for presumably all sins are finite acts against God. How does one square a belief in a good, just and loving God with eternal punishment? I think these are good questions as they reference the very character and nature of God....

We should know that when we sin, an infinite factor is involved. All sin is an offense against God, the raising of a finite will against an infinite God. It is failure to carry out one's obligation to him to whom everything is due. So sin cannot be considered just a finite act deserving finite punishment.

God does not send anyone to hell. He desired that none should perish (2 Pet 3:9). It is the choice of humans to experience the agony of hell. Their sin sends them there, and their rejection of the benefit of Christ's death prevents their escape. They've resisted the protective cover of His body.

C.S Lewis: "It's like saying, 'Go away and leave me alone.'" Hell is saying back, "You may have your wish." It is God leaving one to oneself, as they've chosen, despite the pain it brings him.

[Socialite]

Implications:

1) Decisions we make in this life will govern our future condition not merely for a period of time, but for all eternity. This should sober us.

2) Conditions of this life are transit in nature -- they fade into significance when compared to eternity.

3) The nature of future estates is far more intense than anything known in this life. Images, dreams, imaginations... all are inadequate. The joy we will have there far transcends how we even relate to the idea of joy here.

4) Hell is not so much a torture chamber of physical suffering, as it is an intense and awful loneliness of total and final separation from the Lord.

The judgement of God is severe and serious. He sent His own Son, wrapped Himself in flesh to bear that judgment. This was a job he had to do himself. He absorbed the penalty, made an escape route and simply asked us to get back into covenant with Him by believing. He even said we wouldn't go back to tit-for-tat, being condemned by our own records, but that we would be seen in Him.

The eternal punishment was so severe, He had to come establish a way out.

This is the heart of the Gospel. It's HOPE! There's a way out! But this also means, denying, refusing or rejecting that way out is an eternal decision.

[Socialite]

For God to Universally save everyone, there is no Gospel, no Mission, no Church, no Pentecost. If he "willed" it to be done, it would be done. No plan, no good news --- the reality is.... it's like saying can he create a rock too heavy to lift... he can't. He made us to have a choice. He's made it hard to refuse. He's made it difficult to turn down. He's drowned us in a sea of Grace when he shows up, but it can still be refused. It's the very nature and law of His own creation. It's that vulnerable flaw that gives it beauty --- life, instead of plastic reproduction.

But He's done all the work. He just asks us to rest, trust and believe in Him. Not a bad deal

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

For God to Universally save everyone, there is no Gospel, no Mission, no Church, no Pentecost. If he "willed" it to be done, it would be done. No plan, no good news --- the reality is.... it's like saying can he create a rock too heavy to lift... he can't. He made us to have a choice. He's made it hard to refuse. He's made it difficult to turn down. He's drowned us in a sea of Grace when he shows up, but it can still be refused. It's the very nature and law of His own creation. It's that vulnerable flaw that gives it beauty --- life, instead of plastic reproduction.

But He's done all the work. He just asks us to rest, trust and believe in Him. Not a bad deal

The above view of God, is a god that is confused and impotent toward his creation, powerless to complete what he began. Why? because he failed to take in to account the power of Satan and the ALL POWERFUL WILL of those that he created.

This is not the God of the Bible, it is a god created in the image of his creation, by men who make excuses for the failure of the this wimpy creator.

BUT JESUS CHRIST THE TRUE GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD, TO THE RESCUE!!!!

"...FEAR NOT FOR I HAVE OVERCOME THE WORLD...!