OK, stop and think about what happened on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts chapter 2.
There were originally over 500 believers who saw Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:6). 120 of these believers (what's that, about one fourth?) were waiting in Jerusalem for an empowering of the Spirit that Jesus referred to as a baptism in the Spirit. As these 120 were gathered together (probably in the Temple) about 9 a.m. the Holy Spirit fell upon them and they began to speak with tongues. This was not their salvation experience. They were already followers of Jesus and had previously ministered in His name/authority. This was an added clothing/enduement of power to do His work.
A crowd gathered and some heard these Spirit filled disciples speaking in tongues and some actually understood what was being said.
Peter stood up and explained that this was a fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecy of Joel that God was now pouring out His Spirit upon all. He continued and preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. He concluded with what is recorded in Acts 2:38-40. He told those hearing him:
1. Repent, turn from sin to God, call on Him for mercy, (in other words, get saved)
2. Then follow up that salvation/deliverance experience with baptism/mikveh
3. Then, you also can receive this same enduement or empowering of the Holy Spirit, this promise of the Father, that you have seen demonstrated earlier today.
About 3000 joined themselves to them by believing in Jesus and being baptized.
How many of these 3000 also received the Holy Ghost Baptism? We don't know. It's not recorded. We assume some of them did at that time or later but we don't know that for sure. But, however many of the 3000 who did not receive the Holy Ghost baptism were just as saved as the 380 of the original 500 believers who did not receive the Holy Ghost Baptism.
The agonizing tarrying that we've imposed on people is based on a couple of premises. One is that because 120 people waited/tarried for 10 days to receive the Holy Ghost Baptism that was some kind of a pattern for us today. In the program of God, He had planned to pour out His Spirit universally on Pentecost AD 30. That's when He did it. They could not have received the experience in 3 or 4 or 9 days because God planned it for Pentecost. We've also equated that experience of Pentecost with salvation while it was separate from and subsequent to the salvation of those 120 people. The Holy Ghost wasn't poured out on 120 sinners to save them but was poured out on 120 believers to empower them. After Pentecost if/when people were filled with or baptized in the Spirit, it ordinarily happened by just an outpouring or by hands laid upon them -not after protracted begging, pleading, worshiping, and praising.
and you guys say us traditional OPs twist things up....
LOL, Love ya Sam but that isnt exactly how i see it.
1. Peter preached the gospel.
2. 3000 at least heard about the death buriel and resurecting of Jesus
3. they got pricked in their hearts
4. they asked what they must do.
5. Peter told them (acts 2:38)
at least that is what i find in the 17 or so versions I have read.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
and you guys say us traditional OPs twist things up....
LOL, Love ya Sam but that isnt exactly how i see it.
1. Peter preached the gospel.
2. 3000 at least heard about the death buriel and resurecting of Jesus
3. they got pricked in their hearts
4. they asked what they must do.
5. Peter told them (acts 2:38)
at least that is what i find in the 17 or so versions I have read.
I am still trying to figure out who is more dangerous to Christianity - Sam or an atheist.
So, the question the multitudes asked in Acts 2:37, "... what shall we do?" was not, "... what shall we do [to be saved]?", as so many like to add to the verse. Rather, it was more in line with, "... what shall we do [now]?" From scripture they already knew what to do to be 'saved'. From living by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) to the circumcision of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6).
The feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) is the anniversary day (6th of Sivan) when God addressed the entire nation of Israel and gave them the 'Law'. It was also this same day that God choose to shed abroad His Holy Spirit with the advent period of Christ.
However, the disciples had their names written in the book of life (written in heaven) prior to the death of Jesus (Luke 10:20), and a number of the disciples also received the holy Spirit prior to the day of Pentecost (John 20:19-24), which, from the evidence of Pentecost, those disciple being in attendance received the 'authority' of the Spirit directly from Jesus, but not yet the ability to exercise the 'power' of the Spirit on their own. Compare the universal authority demonstrated in (Acts 3:6) and the 'conditional' authority demonstrated in Luke 9:1-6 and Luke 10:1-17)
Another common doctrine that gets hit, is that on the day of Pentecost the disciple spoke in 'unknown' tongues. Taken by many to include speaking in a prayer language or in some heavenly language. Not so. All recorded languages in Acts 2 were of known languages. While the speakers may not have 'known' (understood) the languages they spoke, others did. The terms 'unknown tongues' and 'unknown language' do not exist in the original biblical texts. Actually, the Greek word for 'unknown' is not even used in the New Testament texts.
When religious traditions takes presence over scripture, we are free to make of scripture whatever we desire. Well, we are free to do what we desire until we have to face God and explain, by what authority we rewrote His word and set our own doctrines above His. And, to think that we often judge harshly the traditions of the Pharisees and Scribes. /sigh/
__________________
It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
So, the question the multitudes asked in Acts 2:37, "... what shall we do?" was not, "... what shall we do [to be saved]?", as so many like to add to the verse. Rather, it was more in line with, "... what shall we do [now]?" From scripture they already knew what to do to be 'saved'. From living by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) to the circumcision of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6).
The feast of Shavuot (Pentecost) is the anniversary day (6th of Sivan) when God addressed the entire nation of Israel and gave them the 'Law'. It was also this same day that God choose to shed abroad His Holy Spirit with the advent period of Christ.
However, the disciples had their names written in the book of life (written in heaven) prior to the death of Jesus (Luke 10:20), and a number of the disciples also received the holy Spirit prior to the day of Pentecost (John 20:19-24), which, from the evidence of Pentecost, those disciple being in attendance received the 'authority' of the Spirit directly from Jesus, but not yet the ability to exercise the 'power' of the Spirit on their own. Compare the universal authority demonstrated in (Acts 3:6) and the 'conditional' authority demonstrated in Luke 9:1-6 and Luke 10:1-17)
Another common doctrine that gets hit, is that on the day of Pentecost the disciple spoke in 'unknown' tongues. Taken by many to include speaking in a prayer language or in some heavenly language. Not so. All recorded languages in Acts 2 were of known languages. While the speakers may not have 'known' (understood) the languages they spoke, others did. The terms 'unknown tongues' and 'unknown language' do not exist in the original biblical texts. Actually, the Greek word for 'unknown' is not even used in the New Testament texts.
When religious traditions takes presence over scripture, we are free to make of scripture whatever we desire. Well, we are free to do what we desire until we have to face God and explain, by what authority we rewrote His word and set our own doctrines above His. And, to think that we often judge harshly the traditions of the Pharisees and Scribes. /sigh/
Wow. As usual, once you say something, there isn't much left to be said. Great analysis. Thank you for sharing your gift.
Ok, I just finished reading through the thread. Well, that's not totally accurate...I skipped all that pre-terrorism hooey. Ya'll jumped in and ruined a really good thread. Go start your own hooey-thread and let's dive into what Sam started. No one even attempted to answer what AW said, including Brilliant Blume, who would completely disagree with him. Instead, he jumped into the terrorism nonsense.
I'd like to hear a response to what AW said on page one. Pressing on? Bloom? Give it a shot (if you're able).
My understanding leans on the note Peter said about the right hand seating of Christ, which indicated the Spirit was poured out only due to that seating. This means what they received in Acts 2 was not the same as any experience before the cross.
Also, Peter said Acts 2:38 was words amongst more words of how to be saved from that wicked generation, as Jesus emphasized that generation was doomed again and again in the gospels. So acts 2:38 IS about salvation!
Acts 2:38-40 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. (40) And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Some might think 2:40 salvation was from doom for Israel, which may be the case.
My thoughts anyway.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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So, the question the multitudes asked in Acts 2:37, "... what shall we do?" was not, "... what shall we do [to be saved]?", as so many like to add to the verse. Rather, it was more in line with, "... what shall we do [now]?" From scripture they already knew what to do to be 'saved'. From living by faith (Habakkuk 2:4) to the circumcision of the heart (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6).
...
A couple of thoughts about your comments.
Concerning the Habakkuk scripture, Paul quotes it three times in the New Testament to describe justification/salvation by faith. Romans 1:17 (the Just) Gal 3:11 (shall live) Heb 10:38 (by faith)
I have a couple notes in my Bible at Hab 2:4 that I am not sure of their source.
The first is "Grandfather of the Reformation" I think I heard Bro. S.G. Norris say that.
The second is:
The Jewish Talmud says Moses gave Israel 613 commandments, David reduced them to 10, Isaiah to 2, and Habakkuk to one, "The just shall live by his faith."
Hybrid Mode
