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Old 12-01-2009, 02:08 PM
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Purgatory

I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:40 PM
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Re: Purgatory

Basically, it's just a practice of praying for the dead. It's interesting that it was probably taken from Judaism which was an ancient practice and, I believe, it was also an ancient Buddhist custom.
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Old 12-01-2009, 02:59 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Purgatory

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Originally Posted by easter View Post
I wonder why the Catholic religion believes in purgatory?Are the Catholics the only ones who believe in such a place?Is there scripture in the word that validates purgatory, a place where people who are not quiet bad enough for hell but not good enough for Heaven?
I would appreciate any comments on this subject of Purgatory and if this place is real.
Purgatory was the result of the enfluence from the Greek interpretation of Scripture. The Latin Catholics believed in eternal torments yet the Greek language appears to indicate or at least allow for a type of purgatory or purification. Study the theological term "kolasis" (Gk.) and how it was used by Christ.
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Old 08-23-2011, 02:25 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: Purgatory

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Purgatory was the result of the enfluence from the Greek interpretation of Scripture. The Latin Catholics believed in eternal torments yet the Greek language appears to indicate or at least allow for a type of purgatory or purification. Study the theological term "kolasis" (Gk.) and how it was used by Christ.
If you study the term IN context you will see the intent is to cut off or remove the evil ones from the good ones. It was always about pruning creation.

When a tree or bush is pruned you remove parts that make it "ugly"

Notice the context begins with a separation of the virgins that were ready and those that were not

Mat 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.
Mat 25:3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them,
Mat 25:4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept.
Mat 25:6 But at midnight there was a cry, 'Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.'
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, 'Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.'
Mat 25:10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, 'Lord, lord, open to us.'
Mat 25:12 But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'

and continues on

Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

and on

Mat 25:33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Mat 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angel
Concluded by
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Notice the same word for ETERNAL is used with regards to punishment (kolasis) and Life

Read the context, it does not sound like these people are sent somewhere, purified, then returned. There is never a mention of them again
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Old 12-01-2009, 03:11 PM
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Re: Purgatory

Purgatory is in the apocrypha.
2 Maccabees 12:43-45, 2.000 pieces of silver were sent to Jerusalem for a sin-offering...Whereupon he made reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:13 PM
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Re: Purgatory

Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?
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Old 12-03-2009, 07:27 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Purgatory

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Originally Posted by easter View Post
Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?
Personally (and I only speak for myself), purgatory isn't all that biblically based. However, the notion of "kolasis" (Gk.; Matthew 25:46), as can be defined by a "pruning" or "refinement" of the wicked (Universal Reconciliationism) is a far more biblically sustainable position.

Ultimately we must leave God's dealings with the unsaved entirely in His hands, firmly believing that He is both just and merciful.
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Old 12-03-2009, 08:51 AM
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Re: Purgatory

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Thanks everyone for the replies and links.
Is purgatory sound doctrine?
The Apocrypha was rejected from the KJV because of things like purgatory. I do not believe it is sound doctrine whatsoever.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:55 PM
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Deo Gratias Deo Gratias is offline
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Re: Purgatory

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Not forgiven in this age or the age to come.

What could be forgiven in heaven? or hell? Yet Jesus is implying that some sort of post-death forgiveness can occur for some sins, because He takes care to point out that it won't happen for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. 11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw 13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

2 Tim 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, 17 but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me 18 may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus.

Onesiphorus is almost certainly dead, else why would Paul ask the Lord to grant mercy to his family apart from him? Yet Paul also asks the Lord to grant Onesiphorus mercy. If there is no Purgatory, why does Paul ask this? Those in hell cannot be helped by prayers and those in heaven have no need of prayers.

1 Pet 3:18-19 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

Mt 5:25-26 Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

In other words there is a temporal debt attached to all sin and if we haven't fully expiated that debt in this life we must do so in purgatory.

Lk 16:19-31 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"

God is love. Hell is being completely cut off from God. Hell is being completely cut off from love. In Hell, one can feel no love for anyone, not even one's self - it is total exclusion from love, from God. The rich man is clearly not in heaven, but he just as clearly feels compassion for his brothers and is concerned about their well-being, so he is clearly not in hell. Where is he? Incidentally, this is the only parable in which Christ gives one of the persons in the story a name - Lazarus. For this reason, many Christian commentators think this is not a parable, but a description of an historical event known to Christ.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. {This is very sobering. Two thirds of men will be eternally lost. It also agrees perfectly with the parable of the sower. In the parable of the sower only one third of the seed fell in rich soil and producted fruit.}

Wisdom 3:5-6 - Afflicted in few things, in many they shall be well rewarded: because God hath tried them, and found them worthy of himself.

As gold in the furnace he hath proved them, and as a victim of a holocaust he hath received them, and in time there shall be respect had to them.

Sirah 2:5 For gold and silver are tried in the fire, but acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Since nothing unclean can enter heaven that means that we must be completely cleansed from all faults and attachments to venial sin.

The doctrine of purgatory is not something that the Church made up, it is firmly rooted in sacred scripture. I've only posted a few scripture references for purgatory but there are many more. It is an article of faith that must be believed by all Catholics. Before the Protestant reformation all Christians believed in purgatory. Also Eastern Orthodox
Christians (while they don't believe in purgatory) believe that after death a soul in a state of grace must go through a purification process before being admitted into heaven. Since very few of us depart from this life perfect, most of us will end up having to go through purgatory.
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:01 AM
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Re: Purgatory

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Originally Posted by Deo Gratias View Post
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Not forgiven in this age or the age to come.

What could be forgiven in heaven? or hell? Yet Jesus is implying that some sort of post-death forgiveness can occur for some sins, because He takes care to point out that it won't happen for the sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit.
Purgatory is non-existent. There is not one plain statement Jesus ever made to the effect that a purgatory will occur for people, and to take passages like you are taking makes purgatory something IMPLIED AT BEST, but NEVER stated in plain terms in the bible. Would such an important doctrine be derived from VAGUENESS of IMPLICATIONS and not be plainly stated? Of course not.

Not being forgiven in the age to come is not speaking of a PLACE to come, but AN AGE. It implies everyone will experience THIS AGE. How can that imply purgatory, since not everyone will go through purgatory in the minds of the Catholic teaching? The blood of Jesus alone cleanses from all sin, and we cannot add to that some idea of purgatory to do the work through suffering. Jesus suffered for us in regards to sin. We need not suffer for sin in one minuscule manner. We suffer for other reasons, but never for sin. Jesus spoke those words before the cross. THE AGE TO COME was the age of the CHURCH. neither before the church age started nor during the church age would that sin be forgiven. It is not speaking about the afterlife. More later.
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