Whats The Point Of The Resurrection Of The Dead?

[Michael The Disciple]

If we immediately travel to Heaven upon death,worshipping at the throne of Elohim in full awareness why would there need to be a RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD?

Is it not true if you were alive before Yeshua you would not be dead?

The foundation doctrines of Hebrews six includes the resurrection of THE DEAD. So the dead evidently will be RESURRECTED. Is this not the HOPE OF THE CHRISTIAN?

24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the Way which they call a sect, so serve I the God of our fathers, believing all things which are according to the law, and which are written in the prophets; 24:15 having hope toward God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:14-15 ASV

It is striking that Hebrews six speaks nothing of the doctrine of eternal life APART FROM the resurrection of the dead.

Why should we be HOPING for a resurrection if we actually gain eternal life when we die?

If this is true the great hope of the Saints should be their own death!

[Michael The Disciple]

The Tanakh is a good place to begin concerning why we REALLY need a resurrection.

4: Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
5: For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks? Psalms 6:4-5

In death you will not remember YHWH. You will not be giving him thanks.

17: The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

Death is a place of silence. Men are not praising him there.

2: While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3: Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4: His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:2-4

While we are alive we can praise the Lord. We can sing to him while we have being. The day our breath ceases our thoughts perish. To perish is to die. Not just our body dies but also our thoughts.

10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecc. 9:10

There is no knowledge in the grave. The grave is "Sheol". Nothing happens there.

14: If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Job 14:14

Job believed he would live after death. But he believed there was a waiting period involved. Afterwards his change
would come. This change is called the "resurrection".

13: If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
14: I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou are my mother, and my sister.
15: And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
16: They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

How plain Job taught on the matter!

While he was waiting for his change to come (death to life) the grave that is "Sheol" would be his house. It was a place of darkness. Since he would make his BED there he is referring to his soul being "asleep" during that time. He taught our REST while waiting would be in the dust.

11: Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?
12: Why did the knees prevent me? or why the breasts that I should suck?
13: For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest,
14: With kings and counsellers of the earth, which built desolate places for themselves; Job 3:11-14

Again Job teaches that at death one both rests and sleeps. Nothing about his rest being in the Heavens.

10: Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
11: Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
12: Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness? Psalms 88:10-12

The wonders of Elohim are not being shown to the dead. If they were worshipping before the throne how could this be? David taught the dead must RISE in order to praise YHWH!

The dark signifies the darkness of death. The land of forgetfulness the lack of knowledge that is there.

This was the foundation teaching from the Tanakh about what happened at death.

In such teaching the bad news was presented. You will die. You will not be aware. You will make your bed in the darkness and rest in the grave.

However it also set the stage for the GOOD NEWS or GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST!

Indeed the gospel of Jesus Christ is the gospel of the resurrection! Jesus was the FIRST to rise from the dead!

22: Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23

Because he lives we will live also!

Before him no man ever obtained immortality. Since him no man was ever granted it.

It is to be given to the righteous as a reward.

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom. 2:6-7

Until that day Jesus only has immortality, eternal life.

14: That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15: Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Tim. 6:14-16

Thats why we need a resurrection. That we may have immortality-eternal life.

[Aquila]

While our spirits may be with the Lord in Heaven upon death, we do not truly live unless in body. We were made to be bodily beings. Essentially God is going to restore his creation and resurrection is key. If all were allowed to remain dead without resurrection... sin and Satan will won.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Aquila

While our spirits may be with the Lord in Heaven upon death, we do not truly live unless in body. We were made to be bodily beings. Essentially God is going to restore his creation and resurrection is key. If all were allowed to remain dead without resurrection... sin and Satan will won.

This is true.

[Daniel12]

Michael
You ask some very good -and tough- questions here. At least I see you've given this some thought and have looked at the scriptures too. As I understand the scriptures, we do not inherit eternal life at death, even if the dead are a state of paradise. That state is only a temporary one, and is not eternal life. Eternal life will only be granted after the dead are restored to life and put on immortality (incorruptability KJV), which only occurs at the coming of the Lord. In 1 Thes 4 Paul wrote:

18:Therefore encourage one another with these words.

which were the words in vv 16-17:

16:...the dead in Christ will rise first.
17: Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Further, I don't see any teaching anywhere (OT or NT) to the effect that the dead are now in heaven, which are the words we frequently use to comfort (encourage in NET) people with.

Just my thoughts, Daniel12

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Daniel12

Michael
You ask some very good -and tough- questions here. At least I see you've given this some thought and have looked at the scriptures too. As I understand the scriptures, we do not inherit eternal life at death, even if the dead are a state of paradise. That state is only a temporary one, and is not eternal life. Eternal life will only be granted after the dead are restored to life and put on immortality (incorruptability KJV), which only occurs at the coming of the Lord. In 1 Thes 4 Paul wrote:

18:Therefore encourage one another with these words.

which were the words in vv 16-17:

16:...the dead in Christ will rise first.
17: Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Further, I don't see any teaching anywhere (OT or NT) to the effect that the dead are now in heaven, which are the words we frequently use to comfort (encourage in NET) people with.

Just my thoughts, Daniel12

Excellent observation, the elect enter an age of aionion life, the sinner enters an age of aionion punishment. Then all "bow and confess" Jesus as Lord, Jesus submits His sonship to the Father, God is then "all in all". The creation is all made new, the New Heaven and New Earth. We were made to have a physical body and live in a physical earth, the whole cosmos is now in right relationship with the Creator. No more curse, death, or hell (grave).

[Michael The Disciple]

Lets go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

What does Paul mean by asking the question "Oh death where is thy sting" and "Oh grave where is thy victory".

The sting of death and the victory over the grave is so plainly LINKED TO THE RESURRECTION.

The erroneous doctrine of eternal life apart from the resurrection has no meaning in this light. Until then death has the victory according to Paul.

Christians today only think the grave is already defeated. It is something taken by faith. Yet its reality is NOT UNTIL THIS:

54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

[Michael The Disciple]

8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8

The goal is for the saints to be PRESENT WITH THE LORD.

What Paul said about when we will be present with the Lord to the Corinthians will not vary from what he told the Thessalonians about the very same subject!

And when did he tell the Thessalonians they would BE PRESENT WITH YESHUA?

16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess. 4:16-17

He tells them both they will be PRESENT WITH THE LORD when the second coming of Yeshua takes place and the dead in Christ are resurrected!

Indeed if he meant to imply that as soon as we die we are THEN present with the Lord he would have been telling something DIFFERENT to the Thessalonians for to them he said they will ever be with him AT THE RESURRECTION!

It becomes obvious that Pauls meaning to the Corinthians was NOT the one espoused by todays Bible teachers and students.

[Michael The Disciple]

Here is more proof.

When will we receive eternal life?

28: Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29: And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30: But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. Mark 10:28-30

Eternal life is granted IN THE WORLD TO COME.

Guess what? That world has not yet come.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Lets go though the context of 2 Cor. 5.

This is often used against soul sleep teaching. However it fails to take the CONTEXT of 2 Cor.

Paul teaches:

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

This is incorrect. That would only be true if mortality was not speaking of the body only. In 1 Cor 15, the subject is the body and what sort of body will we have in the resurrection. So the BODY ALONE is what is mortal whose mortality is swallowed up of life. Not the soul. the only part of us that "changes" is the body in 1 Cor 15. And that is because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom in its present mortal form. therefore, it must change from being mortal to immortal.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY

But in both cases he is solely speaking of the body. 2 Cor 5 is speaking of the body as well as 1 Cor 15. Nothing more.

51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. The Corinthians. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

Right -- BODY. Not soul or spirit.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

That is not the context, though. The context mentions a nakedness without the body. And this is precisely what Paul said occurs when we die. The soul and spirit are absent from the body and present with the Lord. If it was as you claim, there is an interim period between the time of the death and the time when the immortal body is provided when death is swallowed up of life. But Paul says nothing about that interim period. Neither does Paul say that absence from the mortal body is presence with the Lord in an immortal body. All these very important factors are missing, if you are correct. That means, I believe you are adding to the text something that is not there based upon your pretext.

1) Paul does not say anything about an interim period.

2) Paul does not say absence from one body means presence with the Lord in another body.

Leaving the context intact, without additions to it, we read that we are naked outside the body when we die, and are with the Lord. But that is not permanent. Though our mortal bodies dissolve, and we are absent from them at death, we are promised a body from heaven that is immortal. Mortality is swallowed up of life when the mortal body, dead or alive, changes. And then our bodily-absent spirits and souls once again become housed in a body, but an immortal one this time.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY.

In this context it is restricted to the body aspect alone, though. Again, BODIES are the themes of both 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15.

Sorry I cannot see your view coinciding with scripture. You have to read into the scripture things it does not say to arrive at your conclusion.

But thanks for your explanation. I do respect it.