Senator Lindsey Graham Debates Himself On Torture

[Digging4Truth]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3vH4umQIE4

[Ferd]

I wish he hand not said what he said in 2008.... I suppose...

But there is a difference in the first place of seeking to stop water boarding

and in the second place seeking to stop members of the Bush Admin. from being tried and sent to prison.

context matters. I dont agree with Graham that we should not waterboard. I really dont care what anyone else thinks but if you are a devout terrorist, you have forfitted every single protection that society has provided to its members.... Including the Geneva conventions, the Army Field manual, or even simple proper care for humanity.

Terrorists get NO protection at all in my view.


Graham is wrong to oppose it, but he is right to defend the men who gave the legal opinions and the Obama admisitration has best leave off this witch hunt. they will be out of office one day. and there will be some excuse to toss someone in jail then too.

[EVAunit01]

I really don't understand how a Christian can be for torture.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by EVAunit01

I really don't understand how a Christian can be for torture.

So do you think Christians should be in the military?

Do you think Christians should kill?


There are Christians in Russia-- no doubt a few in their Armed Forces. If one day we are at war with them, should I not fight, even kill, my foes-- even if they might be Christians?


God forbid, America and Israel end up at war with each other. This will never happen.


Say there are Jews serving in the country that my country deems to be the enemy. Should I, as a Christian not fight the enemies of my country because I might kill a Jew?

[SOUNWORTHY]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

So do you think Christians should be in the military?

Do you think Christians should kill?


There are Christians in Russia-- no doubt a few in their Armed Forces. If one day we are at war with them, should I not fight, even kill, my foes-- even if they might be Christians?


God forbid, America and Israel end up at war with each other. This will never happen.


Say there are Jews serving in the country that my country deems to be the enemy. Should I, as a Christian not fight the enemies of my country because I might kill a Jew?

Not only should but it is a Christian man's obligation to serve. Fulfilling your obligation does not necessarily mean you have to kill. You can serve in the Air force or Navy.

Don't be too sure of that. Especially under the present administration.

[EVAunit01]

Originally Posted by SOUNWORTHY

Not only should but it is a Christian man's obligation to serve. Fulfilling your obligation does not necessarily mean you have to kill. You can serve in the Air force or Navy.

Don't be too sure of that. Especially under the present administration.

How is a Christian obligated to serve in the military?

[MikeinAR]

Originally Posted by EVAunit01

I really don't understand how a Christian can be for torture.

100% agree. A Christian, a true American, someone who values the Constitution, the Geneva conventions.... the list goes on and on.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by MikeinAR

100% agree. A Christian, a true American, someone who values the Constitution, the Geneva conventions.... the list goes on and on.

Torture is relative.

I am a Christian.

I value the Constitution, the Geneva Convention rights and etc.

As a country, it is best for American policy to always stay within the parameters of the highest, world-accepted standards since we present ourselves as a moral authority in the world.


However, water boarding is not all that sinister.
Doing what you can to win a war against an enemy that has no moral boundaries sometimes forces your hand to do things that you wouldn't be proud of.

I think that folks who announce their absolute abhorence of water boarding as torture are the same folks that may not realize just how evil and unfortunately, necessary war can be.


"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under Heaven...."
Ecclesiates 3:1

[OldTimey]

WWJT........Who Would Jesus Torture?

[EVAunit01]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

So do you think Christians should be in the military?

Not necessarily. That being said I don't know why a Christian would want serve in a position that might see combat. It's notoriously hard to be a Christian while in the military and I don't understand why anyone would want that extra burden.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Do you think Christians should kill?

I think the Bible is pretty clear on that.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

There are Christians in Russia-- no doubt a few in their Armed Forces. If one day we are at war with them, should I not fight, even kill, my foes-- even if they might be Christians?

There is a problem with your question. Any person who murders or who obeys the laws and commandments of man rather than those of God, is not a Christian. The issue of killing Russian Christians in combat is a moot one. If they are truly Christian they will not be fighting me, except in self defense. If I am truly Christian, I will not be attacking them in the first place.

You also seem to be incinuating that killing Christians is somehow different than killing non believers. It isn't.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Say there are Jews serving in the country that my country deems to be the enemy. Should I, as a Christian not fight the enemies of my country because I might kill a Jew?

Again, whether I kill a Jew or Gentile, the morality of the situation is the same. But to answer your question I believe you have a right to defend yourself and your property from any aggressors.

Also, you raised the issue of the enemy being chosen by your country. I would hope that every individual, especially Christians, would not blindly follow the orders of the secular government. If the person in question is really your enemy, that is to say, if he is really attacking you, then yes, I believe you have every right to defend yourself.

However if some individual decides not to fight against another person that has done him no harm, then that individual is not only justified in his inaction, but he is extremely Christian in doing so.

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Torture is relative.
However, water boarding is not all that sinister.

It makes you feel as if you are drowning. Are you really saying that sort of thing is ok for a Christian to do?!

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Doing what you can to win a war against an enemy that has no moral boundaries sometimes forces your hand to do things that you wouldn't be proud of.

I think that folks who announce their absolute abhorence of water boarding as torture are the same folks that may not realize just how evil and unfortunately, necessary war can be.


"To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under Heaven...."
Ecclesiates 3:1

There are a few major problems with your statements.

First it is very odd when Christians who are usually the biggest opponents of situational ethics should advocate torture for utilitarian reasons. A person can not believe that morality is absolute and yet condone some immoral act when it suits his fancy.

Second the verse you quoted does not legitimize torture. There may be a time when torture happens. But that does not mean that there is ever a time when torture should happen.