Understanding Holiness

[wilderness]

I was raised Pentecostal (still attend a Pentecostal church) and have never understood the "holiness" standards.

I have conducted studies, read books, spoken to elders, pastoral staff, and top evangelist's within Pentecostal to attempt to gain a clear understanding. I have not heard a consistent explanation of why we do what we do. In the studies that I have conducted, I have yet to find concrete scriptures that create a firm foundation for the "holiness" standards.

I understand that it is obedience and submission to those that have authority over you statement that is commonly used.

Let me please note, that in any discussion it was not to debate, question, or be disrespectful. I believe that you must respect the office, even if you cannot respect the "man or woman" in the office. I have never had a heated discussion concerning this topic with anyone.

I believe that if one has a relationship with God, that he will convict you on an individual basis as your relationship grows with God. What God expects from one, maybe different from what he expects from another.

I believe we should be modest in appearance, I do not believe that only certain garments are modest. I have seen many endorsed "modest" garments be as revealing than non-endorsed garments. Likewise I have seen endorsed activities be as ungodly as non-endorsed activities. Over the last 15 years I have seen the "holiness" standards go from being evidence of a relationship with God, to the current status of a matter of salvation.

I have seen convictions of one individual be pushed on many individuals. I do not believe that this is proper or Biblical. However, I'm not a fan of throwing holiness to the wind and not having a stance on anything.

As you can tell, I'm in a very confusing time in my life. I have given up positions within the leadership of the current Church that I attend, because I cannot stand behind the leadership of the Church 100% and do not subscribe to the "holiness" standards 100%.

As a result I have been on a journey of visiting other Churches and to my amazement I have found that there are folks that are non-Pentecostal that are Christians. I have seen folks that have fruit to show for their relationship with God. Fruit, not in flashing lights, correctly operated sound systems, nice facilities, effectively ran programs, teaching for all age groups, excellent operations, community outreach, not to mention good preaching, etc., Fruit, talking about God, wanting to learn more, bringing visitors to church, excited to talk about church, caring for others and the community.

What has been disturbing for me, is to find that in the majority of the Church that folks are dressed rather modestly and that most of the things that I have heard over many Pentecostal pulpits don't match up with reality.

I believe in self examination rather than striking out at others or being ugly because I may be in a wilderness experience. As a result, I pose the following questions:

Am I blind to see the ungodliness of the non-Pentecostal churches?

Is there something wrong with me?

Am I a backslider?

Am I taking my family down a dead end road?

Why do I feel confused about everything I have heard since I was a child?

I know I'm not the first, nor the last that will or have posed these same questions.

What are your thoughts?

[coadie]

Do you believe in no separation?
1 example. Jews are a separate people. Leviticus declared certain people unclean for handling a dead body. They needed to wash up and get cleaned up. Today we have the law in us. It still lacks in separation. Lister who discovered bacteria, found that women got sick and died at child birth and if a doc washed his hands between deliveries, the next mom would not also get sick and die. He discovered the trasmission of diseasees by unclean human hands. Why didn't the Holy spirit give us this science?
Do you know that if we rasie children in a home with smoking and drinkimng those behaviors pass on also. with separation at many levels, we can break the curse.

Why do I feel confused about everything I have heard since I was a child?

Do you listen to the author of confusion?

welcome to this discussion board. We can share with you many ideas that are in the bible. Separation began in the first 3 verses of genesis. Holiness is separation in many ways.

Fruit, talking about God, wanting to learn more, bringing visitors to church, excited to talk about church, caring for others and the community.

These are fruits that can be done in the flesh meaning they do not require a special Power of the Holy Ghost.
Healings by the laying on of hands. Gift of the spirit.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by coadie

Do you believe in no separation?
1 example. Jews are a separate people. Leviticus declared certain people unclean for handling a dead body. They needed to wash up and get cleaned up. Today we have the law in us. It still lacks in separation. Lister who discovered bacteria, found that women got sick and died at child birth and if a doc washed his hands between deliveries, the next mom would not also get sick and die. He discovered the trasmission of diseasees by unclean human hands. Why didn't the Holy spirit give us this science?
...

Nice dodge, but I guess it's sort of ingrained in all of us.

Pentecostal "Holiness standards" have never included commandments to wash your hands after handling a dead person. (You may have been trying to include this point, but I wasn't sure).

Also, the Law of Moses commanded a period of uncleanness lasting 7 days- kind of an unwieldy requirement in today's hospitals, and not even a concern in most Pentecostal/Apostlic churches.

The use of tobacco was always forbidden among the groups that would later spin off the Pentecostal movement at the turn of the last century. Holiness, Brethren and even the Baptists all eschewed it's use. We simply carried an older (and wise opinion) over from our former practices.

So, we are still left with Wilderness's concerns and your statement about "the author of confusion..." My question: Who authored the differing and often self contradictory "holiness standards" among us?

Who is the real author of this confusion? Despite many people's claim about "convictions" coming from "the Spirit..." - the real author of confusion would not be God at all.

[wilderness]

Originally Posted by coadie

Do you believe in no separation? Yes, but I think separation is more than the outward appearance. One could look the part but have a cold heart and soul.
1 example. Jews are a separate people. Leviticus declared certain people unclean for handling a dead body. They needed to wash up and get cleaned up. Today we have the law in us. It still lacks in separation. Lister who discovered bacteria, found that women got sick and died at child birth and if a doc washed his hands between deliveries, the next mom would not also get sick and die. He discovered the trasmission of diseasees by unclean human hands. Why didn't the Holy spirit give us this science?
Do you know that if we rasie children in a home with smoking and drinkimng those behaviors pass on also. with separation at many levels, we can break the curse.


Do you listen to the author of confusion? That is one of the purposes of my posting.

welcome to this discussion board. We can share with you many ideas that are in the bible. Separation began in the first 3 verses of genesis. Holiness is separation in many ways. [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]Thank you for the welcome.[/COLOR]


These are fruits that can be done in the flesh meaning they do not require a special Power of the Holy Ghost.
Healings by the laying on of hands. Gift of the spirit.

See my reply in red......

Wilderness

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by wilderness

I was raised Pentecostal (still attend a Pentecostal church) and have never understood the "holiness" standards.



Am I blind to see the ungodliness of the non-Pentecostal churches?
No Wilderness, sounds like your vision is in fact is improving.

Is there something wrong with me?
Sounds like you are seeking a closer relationship with God. NOTHING wrong with that.

Am I a backslider?
Only people with eyes blinded by years of legalistic overbearing teaching would call you backslid.

Am I taking my family down a dead end road?
No wilderness, sounds more like you are getting off dead end road.

Why do I feel confused about everything I have heard since I was a child?
If you are feeling confused it is because you have not settled the questions in your mind thru a proper understanding of God.

I know I'm not the first, nor the last that will or have posed these same questions.

What are your thoughts?

Sounds like you are no different than any other child of God that is seeking to know truth.

[Sherri]

Wilderness, you are on a journey to find a real relationship with the Lord. Make sure you keep following His voice and He will lead and guide you into all truth. There is nothing wrong with questioning; if your beliefs cannot withstand questioning, then they aren't real anyway.

And you are completely right - there are a whole lot of people out there outside the realm of Pentecostalism who really do love God and strive everyday to please Him. They may not have as much understanding about some things as you do, but they are passionately in love with the Lord and doing their best. However, in other things (like "grace"), they tend to have more understanding than some of us.

It's a confusing place to be in. Don't do anything rash and don't throw out everything you believe just because you see some inconsistencies. Make sure that you walk softly before the Lord. Just my advice - from someone who has been where you are.

[wilderness]

Originally Posted by Sherri

Wilderness, you are on a journey to find a real relationship with the Lord. Make sure you keep following His voice and He will lead and guide you into all truth. There is nothing wrong with questioning; if your beliefs cannot withstand questioning, then they aren't real anyway.

And you are completely right - there are a whole lot of people out there outside the realm of Pentecostalism who really do love God and strive everyday to please Him. They may not have as much understanding about some things as you do, but they are passionately in love with the Lord and doing their best. However, in other things (like "grace"), they tend to have more understanding than some of us.

It's a confusing place to be in. Don't do anything rash and don't throw out everything you believe just because you see some inconsistencies. Make sure that you walk softly before the Lord. Just my advice - from someone who has been where you are.

Thank you not planning to do anything rash, not planning on changing Churches for the next 6 months. Been in this place for a year now. I believe and will continue to believe in the Death, Burial , and Resurrection - Hear, Oh Israel the Lord thy God is one.

Wilderness

[mizpeh]

My first observation is it sounds to me like you have been examining more than just "holiness standards".

Originally Posted by wilderness

Am I blind to see the ungodliness of the non-Pentecostal churches?

Why would you think that believers in Christ in non Pentecostal churches are ungodly? If they profess faith in Christ, have repented of their sins, and are making an effort to walk with God, I would think that they would not be ungodly.

Is there something wrong with me?

No, it seems there comes a time when we all examine what we believe. We are to prove all things and hold fast that which is true. There is nothing wrong with searching the scriptures to see if what you are being taught is true.

Am I a backslider?

Do you really feel like letting go of some things that you cannot find support for in the Bible is backsliding?

Am I taking my family down a dead end road?

You believe that the Spirit of God will convict you of sin, right? He will also let you know if you are going down a dead end road or if you are still on the way of Holiness.

Why do I feel confused about everything I have heard since I was a child?

Perhaps because there are some things being preached which don't line up with the conclusions you made from the studies you've done in the word of God. And now you think "if what I've been taught in this area and that area isn't Biblical then what else might be unscriptural?" Be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water.

I know I'm not the first, nor the last that will or have posed these same questions.

That's an understatement. Have you read through past threads in AFF's archives. I could recommend some posters to read on the subject of "holiness standards" on this site. Check out threads started by Nahum on this subject. Or any and all posts by Newman.

What are your thoughts?

There is open and, I think, very honest and frank discussion on this site of the very things you are questioning. The truth will stand up to strong examination.

If you approach God's word with an open and sincere heart to know the truth, He will show you. John 16:13

[wilderness]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

My first observation is it sounds to me like you have been examining more than just "holiness standards".Why would you think that believers in Christ in non Pentecostal churches are ungodly? Well unfortunately that is what is preached over the pulpit.

If they profess faith in Christ, have repented of their sins, and are making an effort to walk with God, I would think that they would not be ungodly. Well unfortunately that is what is preached over the pulpit.

No, it seems there comes a time when we all examine what we believe. We are to prove all things and hold fast that which is true. There is nothing wrong with searching the scriptures to see if what you are being taught is true.

Do you really feel like letting go of some things that you cannot find support for in the Bible is backsliding? Well unfortunately that is what is preached over the pulpit.

You believe that the Spirit of God will convict you of sin, right? yes

He will also let you know if you are going down a dead end road or if you are still on the way of Holiness.

Perhaps because there are some things being preached which don't line up with the conclusions you made from the studies you've done in the word of God. And now you think "if what I've been taught in this area and that area isn't Biblical then what else might be unscriptural?" Be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water. [COLOR="rgb(139, 0, 0)"]No problem, still believe in the Death, Burial and Resurrection - Hear oh Israel the Lord thy God is one Lord.[/COLOR]

That's an understatement. Have you read through past threads in AFF's archives. I could recommend some posters to read on the subject of "holiness standards" on this site. Check out threads started by Nahum on this subject. Or any and all posts by Newman.

There is open and, I think, very honest and frank discussion on this site of the very things you are questioning. The truth will stand up to strong examination.

If you approach God's word with an open and sincere heart to know the truth, He will show you. John 16:13

Thank you for your feedback, please see my answers in red.

Wilderness

[mizpeh]

Here is a link to a recent thread started on the subject of Holiness:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=23226