Deltaguitar-Salvation Requires More Than Faith!

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by deltaguitar

Is it your faith that makes Jesus Christ work at the cross effective in our lives for salvation or is it Jesus Christ giving himself on the cross which purchased us and gave us the gift of saving faith along with repentance? This is not a trick question but it is something that I have been thinking about lately.

Deltaquitar and others,

When you read my post, please read its entirety, without skipping any sentences.



Faith without obedience voids the "cause" at the cross.

It's in our obedience that we obtain salvation. James states "faith without works is dead." If your faith is genuine, your faith's fruits will be evidentiary. I purport two faiths, one absent of works while the other is accompanied by works/manifestations. James states, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." The authentication (i.e. works, faith) of those devils believing is their trembling.


Another beautiful example of what I'm trying to convey is found in James 2:15-17. If your brother/sister is naked and hungered, and at their departure you say "depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled", and you fail to cloth or feed them, where is the sincerity in your faith of your brother/sister's well being? Your faith alone isn't enough unless it's accompanied by obedience, which is the same message the entire second chapter of James is conveying.


To acknowledge Jesus as your Lord, that requires more than a confession of Him being your master. To accept Him as your master, you must obey and submit to his rules and authority.



To understand what I'm about to state doesn't require a Theology degree. What is required is basic comprehension.



Delta here's something interesting for you to ponder. Read Roman 6:3-11, there it speaks of water baptism and its symbolism.


According to Romans 6:3-11, when we are water baptized, we are:
baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
buried with Him -Romans 6:4
raised with Him -Romans 6:4
united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
no longer slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
free from sin -Romans 6:7
we will live with Him -Romans 6:8
dead to sin -Romans 6:11
alive to God -Romans 6:11


This would conclude that when we are NOT WATER BAPTIZED, we are:
NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11


You can't argue with simple interpretation of scripture. Baptism is necessary! For this reason Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" Mark 16:16

[n david]

Wow! Great post 1Corinth2v4!

[KWSS1976]

So how do you explain the thief on the cross and death bed repentence as I have heard it called where is the obedience in this? The thief did not offer up a sacrifice to have his sins rolled back a year... I think faith has alot more to do with salvation then some want to believe

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by KWSS1976

So how do you explain the thief on the cross and death bed repentence as I have heard it called where is the obedience in this? The thief did not offer up a sacrifice to have his sins rolled back a year... I think faith has alot more to do with salvation then some want to believe

KWSS,

I already addressed that issue. Salvation in the New Testament also requires one to believe that God raised Jesus from death (Romans 10:9) The thief couldn't have been saved under the new dispensation because Jesus hadn't yet died. Furthermore, Jesus was the last sacrificial sin offering in the Old Testament, thus transferring the thief's sins upon Himself.

Regarding death bed repepntance, comapare that to Romans 6:3-11. Without water baptism, the death bed repenter is:

NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

KWSS,

I already addressed that issue. Salvation in the New Testament also requires one to believe that God raised Jesus from death (Romans 10:9) The thief couldn't have been saved under the new dispensation because Jesus hadn't yet died. Furthermore, Jesus was the last sacrificial sin offering in the Old Testament, thus transferring the thief's sins upon Himself.

Regarding death bed repepntance, comapare that to Romans 6:3-11. Without water baptism, the death bed repenter is:

NOT baptized into His death -Romans 6:3
NOT buried with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT raised with Him -Romans 6:4
NOT united with Him in His resurrection -Romans 6:5
NOT crucified with Him -Romans 6:6
STILL slaves to sin -Romans 6:7
NOT free from sin -Romans 6:7
NOT live with Him -Romans 6:8
NOT dead to sin -Romans 6:11
NOT alive to God -Romans 6:11

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

[deltaguitar]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

Yeah, and what about this.

James 2:10-11 (New International Version)
10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery,"[a] also said, "Do not murder."[b] If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.

If you want to bring your obedience into play then you have to perfectly obey. I mean how do we love our neighbor perfectly.

[1Corinth2v4]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.


I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

Go argue with James.... Obviously you didn't understand. Perhaps you should contact the witch of Endor and have her conjure James, Paul, etc.

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by 1Corinth2v4

Go argue with James.... Obviously you didn't understand. Perhaps you should contact the witch of Endor and have her conjure James, Paul, etc.

This is the best you can do? unbelievable

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Since you sincerely believe it takes a human work to save us; then one could argue we are co-laborers in our own salvation. Also, since all this obedience is required, why don't we start with the greatest commands...loving God and your neighbor as yourself. Why don't we continue in treating others as you would want to be treated.

You see if you're going to argue we can save ourselves, then you're going to have to be perfect to be saved. Your righteousness is going to have to exceed that of the pharisees.

I know of very few Christians, who truly love their neighbor as they love themselves, and I know very few Christians who treat others as they would want to be treated. This is the fundamentals of our faith and on these commands hinge all others.

The flaw in your argument is that you're trying to characterize obedience as a "human work".

Obedience to God's word is not a human work.

And obeying God's command doesnt not make one a "co-laborer in their own salvation."

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

The flaw in your argument is that you're trying to characterize obedience as a "human work".

Obedience to God's word is not a human work.

And obeying God's command doesnt not make one a "co-laborer in their own salvation."

haha so let me make sure what you are saying...obedience as a result of our faith is not our works? So, giving a cup of water in Christs' name is not something I do by my own choice?

TR, I respect you, but we have a serious disconnect. If we can't obey, then how can we be saved? How can we respond, unless we hear? You make absolutely no sense to me.