Why don't some speak in tongues?

[SDG]

David Bernard in his book the New Birth in his chapter discussing repentance attributes not being filled with the Spirit w/ the evidence of speaking tongues, or having diffiiculty in receiving the HG ... to be lacking in repentance and/or faith.

It is important that those who pray with seekers at the altar have a correct understanding of repentance. Below are some practical guidelines based on our discussion.

(1) We should emphasize the moving of God's Spirit, not gimmicks or techniques. Special phrases or motions cannot substitute for repentance.

(2) We should attempt to discern where the seeker is spiritually. If he has not fully repented, we should not prematurely force him to express joy and expect the Spirit. Once he has repented, then we can encourage him to praise God and believe for the Spirit.

(3) We can put ourselves in the seeker's position and pray with him. This will show him how to pray and will help us pray with a burden.

(4) If the seeker does not seem to be making progress, there may be several problems, each of which requires a different approach. The problem may be a failure to understand what repentance is, a refusal to surrender everything to God, a lack of desire (hunger, desperation, sense of urgency), a lack of godly sorrow, or a lack of faith.

(5) We must not try to teach him how to speak in tongues. This sign will come as the Spirit gives utterance. Instead of stressing only that he should yield his tongue to God, we should stress that he should surrender his whole mind and life to God. When the seeker yields everything to God, concentrates totally on Him, and exercises faith, he will be able to yield his tongue to God.

(6) Let us avoid distracting practices such as shaking the seeker, pounding him, forcing him to do certain things, giving conflicting advice, or otherwise annoying him. People often repent and receive the Spirit in spite of, not because of, the altar workers.

If the seeker is sincere and ready to repent, he will receive the Spirit in a short time. If he does not, there is something lacking in his repentance or in his faith. In such a case, altar workers need to be spiritually sensitive and knowledgeable so they can help him overcome these difficulties.

Why don't some receive the gift of the Holy Ghost w/ the evidence of speaking in tongues ... right away ....

We've heard of some who complete either step 1, or steps 1 and 2 .... and for years cannot speak in tongues or struggle to be filled .... Why, is this so? Do you agree w/ Bernard?

Is it more lack of repentance? Lack of faith? Are they not linked?

If one is forgiven at repentance ... and/or after baptism but can't speak in tongues were you really ever forgiven at step one or two?

If we all accept that we are saved by grace through faith but the reason one does not speak in tongues is because a lack of faith ... then did that person ever obey the plan of salvation at least partially ... or exercise salvific faith in the first place?

And tangentially ... do you agree w/ Bernard's altar worker suggestions?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Is that like some altar workers yelling at him let go, let go , let go! Then someone else coming later and yelling hold on, hold on, it's almost there, hold on.

Had some one come into my office tonight asking why a couple of months ago he was baptized with someone else and they came out of the water speaking in tongues and he hasn't spoken in tongues yet. Is there something wrong with me?

Had another brother that I spent months giving bible studies to, to teach him about the oneness. He finally understood and decided to be baptized again in the name of Jesus. He was baptist and had a hard time understanding tongues. I encouraged him to go to an apostolic bible college in union city.

He went several months and took various courses the first year. Upon returning he took some more courses and finally took Pneumatology. During the course he asked what would happen to him since he hadn't received the Holy Ghost. He was told if he didn't have the Holy Ghost he was going to hell. Ro.8.9 This blunt approach caused him to have second thoughts. He soon decided not to come back even to our church though I tried to counsel him differently.

Don't want to cast a shadow of discredit upon the Bible College for I attended there as well. Some very good teachers and teachings. As a more mature Christian I have heard some crazy things and have just dismissed them to ignorance. I do have a problem with the individual who spoke without sensitivity to the situation. This just goes to show how difficult a task we have in properly knowing how to address the concerns of souls in our own midst.

This has been a difficult topic to put a finger on what exactly keeps one from receiving and another without hardly any difficulty. Not really a 1,2,3 step process. All I know is that the scriptures say that we shall receive and that is what I preach.

God Bless
Pastor Daniel T Salaz

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

David Bernard in his book the New Birth in his chapter discussing repentance attributes not being filled with the Spirit w/ the evidence of speaking tongues, or having diffiiculty in receiving the HG ... to be lacking in repentance and/or faith.

Why don't some receive the gift of the Holy Ghost w/ the evidence of speaking in tongues ... right away ....

We've heard of some who complete either step 1, or steps 1 and 2 .... and for years cannot speak in tongues or struggle to be filled .... Why, is this so? Do you agree w/ Bernard?

Is it more lack of repentance? Lack of faith? Are they not linked?

If one is forgiven at repentance ... and/or after baptism but can't speak in tongues were you really ever forgiven at step one or two?

If we all accept that we are saved by grace through faith but the reason one does not speak in tongues is because a lack of faith ... then did that person ever obey the plan of salvation at least partially ... or exercise salvific faith in the first place?

And tangentially ... do you agree w/ Bernard's altar worker suggestions?

Here is a thought....sure they may not receive the Spirit for those reasons...however what if they did have faith and did repent but just have not spoken in tongues yet?

Is it possible to be baptized in the Spirit...be able to speak in tongues but for some reason not understand how to just yield to the Spirit?

I remember Bro Stoneking saying once he was praying with a seeker and he felt in the Spirit that this person could hear words in their head....well he instructed that person to let the words that he was hearing in his head to come out by his voice and the person burst out speaking in tongues....

Does that mean that person was not baptized with the Spirit yet? That does not mean tongues is not the initial evidence but that a person might be struggling with just how to "let go" so they can speak in tongues...

How many times have we prayed with someone and we can tell they were sooooooo close? Stammering lips...the inability to say anything in their own language yet never really letting tongues just take over? You know what I mean...the seeker just can't say anything...not tongues, not english...because they are "right there"....tongues is a sign but tongues it not the means.

Just some thoughts....that maybe there is sometimes more to a person not speaking in tongues yet

Now on the other hand...early Methodists did not believe in all that...but they did believe in earnestly seeking God and waiting on Him....they earnestly believed in praying for confirmation from God of their salvation as a result many of those pre Topeka Methodists spoke in tongues anyways

Oh yeah...then there is third party factor....those well meaning alter workers that are more harm than help...they are annoying. They are confusing. They won't stop talking to that person who is now listening to them more than they are seeking God...

And how much are we responsible for having faith for that person? Some get it inspite of us but some churches are so dead nothing is happening

[SDG]

Great thoughts Prax and Pastor Salaz ... you do understand that some would squirm at your assertions ....

I am bothered by some of the inherent contradictions presented by Bernard, here.

Will share some later.

I still shudder how some make a gift .... into an obligation.

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Great thoughts Prax and Pastor Salaz ... you do understand that some would squirm at your assertions ....

I am bothered by some of the inherent contradictions presented by Bernard, here.

Will share some later.

I still shudder how some make a gift .... into an obligation.

Eternal life- justification is a gift are they also an obligation?

[ManOfWord]

I agreed that it was true for "some." That certainly is a possibility but I don't think it is the norm for that to happen. I think Prax hit on some REALLY good points to consider which I'm afraid too many in "apostolica" are fearful of asking. We see many times where a person truly gives their heart to the Lord and is baptized and doesn't speak in tongues for some time but DOES have the fruit of the Spirit and an evedentiary changed life. The only thing lacking is the tongues.

So, does this make one NOT saved or rapture ready? The 3 step camp has a conundrum here with this and the radicals state that this person is NOT rapture ready.

Honestly, I can't think of a worse thing than God accepting someone's repentance, forgiving their sins and then a man telling them that they are going to hell if they don't speak in tongues. I believe that this is heresy of the WORST kind to tinker and distort God's forgiveness and acceptance.

It would be one thing to tell someone that they could live in sin and still go to heaven....most people understand the error of that....even sinners do, for the most part. But to tell someone who HAS surrendered their life to Him that they are still hell bound is beyond me! I do understand it because I used to preach it with vehemence, because I knew the doctrine (of man) but needed to understand the doctrine Giver better.


BTW, Bernard can't take a chance saying anything other than what he has said due to the fact that it would contradict the company line. He is the UPC's resident "Juris Doctor" and carries the authority that has been placed upon him. It would be interesting to see him have a Martin Luther or apostle Paul experience. It could happen....not likely though.

[SDG]

Mow ... some have gone as far as saying that one is justified before God ... made righteous .... after repentance (Segravian view) or after baptism (Epleyian view) but still not rapture ready because they have not experienced glossolalia ...

I can't wrap my mind around the fact that the righteous will burn in hell or that the bible lied about the righteous being saved.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Mow ... some have gone as far as saying that one is justified before God ... made righteous .... after repentance (Segravian view) or after baptism (Epleyian view) but still not rapture ready ...

I can't wrap my mind around the fact that the righteous will burn in hell or that the bible lied about the righteous being saved.

I believe that kind of thinking/theology can ONLY take place when one is given a paradigm first! After that paradigm is accepted and becomes ingrained, then facts or logic matter not a whit! it doesn't make sense from the viewpoint of God's nature or scripture itself! But it DOES fit with the paradigm and the bottom line given by those who subscribe to it is, "Well, we can't really say if someone is going to hell or not (wink, wink) because God is really the judge. We just let the scripture be the judge."

And their paradigm of the scripture is that they WILL go to hell...they are just too gutless to state what they really believe!



How many times have we been around the bush with 3 steppers trying to get them to simply state what their viewpoint states and that is that a person is NOT rapture ready until they have spoken with tongues? Many times they wiggle, squirm, side-step and juke and jive until they are cornered and then they really get upset when they have to come clean.'

I have been taken to task numerous times when I have called for intellectual honesty in stating what one believes.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

And their paradigm of the scripture is that they WILL go to hell...they are just too gutless to state what they really believe!



How many times have we been around the bush with 3 steppers trying to get them to simply state what their viewpoint states and that is that a person is NOT rapture ready until they have spoken with tongues? Many times they wiggle, squirm, side-step and juke and jive until they are cornered and then they really get upset when they have to come clean.'

I have been taken to task numerous times when I have called for intellectual honesty in stating what one believes.

Ultimately you and I know that none of us can send anyone to hell. We will not be the One sitting on the judgement seat.

You put those who believe the new birth is the baptism of water and the baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues between a rock and a hard place. If we say a believer will not see or enter the kingdom of God without being born again, then you will say we are acting as judges.

If we say we are not judges but simply declare what we believe to be the truth of the word of God ie, tongues is the visible and auditory sign that a believer has been filled with the Holy Spirit, but will not say if a believer does not speak in tongues they are going to hell, then you say we wriggle and squirm and are scared to come clean.


Seriously MOW, what do you expect? Either way you will find fault. So why bother.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Ultimately you and I know that none of us can send anyone to hell. We will not be the One sitting on the judgement seat.

You put those who believe the new birth is the baptism of water and the baptism of the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues between a rock and a hard place. If we say a believer will not see or enter the kingdom of God without being born again, then you will say we are acting as judges.

If we say we are not judges but simply declare what we believe to be the truth of the word of God ie, tongues is the visible and auditory sign that a believer has been filled with the Holy Spirit, but will not say if a believer does not speak in tongues they are going to hell, then you say we wriggle and squirm and are scared to come clean.


Seriously MOW, what do you expect? Either way you will find fault. So why bother.

I am not MOW but I speak from a 1 stepper point of view. I think that 3 steppers can be too tough on people and be too judgmental and also can not stand for what you believe. When most 1 steppers speak we are sure of a persons salvation but usually we say that God is the final judge often times when some 3 steppers talk about it they can become damning to those that don't follow. I am not speaking of all 3 steppers and all 1 steppers, but a good amount of each of the parties do this. There is nothing wrong with standing for what one believes in but approaching it from the "I believe this is the biblical way of doing it" is different than "this is the what the bible says to do and all others are hell bound" see the difference in the terms? One is optimistic and the other is judgmental. That is how I see it.