My 1st thread / Apostolic Language?

[shag]

I recently joined this forum, and this is my 1st thread so here goes.

When Paul was blinded he asked "Who art thou Lord?" And the Lord said "I am Jesus". Paul later wrote to the Colossian church saying that all the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelleth in Christ and we're complete in him. Yet, the monotheistic apostle Paul (& John, Peter, etc) wrote extremely often, mostly in greetings, in the manner I have shown below.

In the churches that I have been blessed to attend (and currently attend), the word(title)" Father" is almost never used except, and because, as we proudly sing: I know Jesus is the Father, I know Jesus is the Son, I know Jesus is the Holyghost, and all these three are one. Would Paul sing : I know Jesus is the Father..?

My primary question is this; If we (his church) have the same theology/revelation as Paul, why does he (& other writers) so persistantly separate the "Father" and the "Lord Jesus Christ", while we, in our speech, conversations, & songs as a whole, do not? Our reasoning: cause "it's all in him". Below are some verses that I have listed. This is a sincere question. Please just answer the question per your opinion, instead of quoting and debating everyone elses postings ( I can learn more from you that way).

Thank You and God Bless.

Ex: Gal. 1:1 Paul an apostle..., but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father who raised him from the dead.(I know: Jesus said destroy this temple, and 3 days I will raise it, my point of separation remains) Please view below, and then answer my highlighted question. Thanks again.

Romans 1:7 Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ

Rom. 15:6That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and
one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power

2 Cor. 1:2Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ

2 Cor. 1:3Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Gal 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph. 1:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph. 3:14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phil 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Phil 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

Col. 1:2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thess. 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints

2 Thess. 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

1 Tim 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

2 Tim. 1:2 Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our

Philemon 3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.[/SIZE]

[Carpenter]

Welcome Shaggy, I would suggest reading about in the hybridizing thread...

[Hoovie]

Uh, that junk belongs on the Trinitarian thread Shag!

Welcome aboard! Nice thread and great topic. I will respond further later on.

Good question. I personally have no problem with it, and I often speak in that manner (the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ' and so forth). I don't that 'most' Oneness people have a problem with it, and I am not so sure I have seen what you are saying in most of the churches I have been blessed to attend.

But I do think that there is somewhat of a fear of being misunderstood, that some people have. I think the same is true of trinitarians as well.

A lot fo the creedal language that trinitarians use came about as an intentional effort to NOT be mistaken for being 'Sabellian' or Oneness or whatever. I think we as a movement have some of the same tendencies, somewhat.

[Digging4Truth]

Welcome Shag... (although I misread your username as Shaq at first and accused poor Stephen Hoover of getting it wrong)

I have already posed this question and did get some conversation on the subject but not what I had hoped.

Hopefully this thread will fare better.

In the meantime you can read through the posts on the thread I created on the subject here.

[OneAccord]

I recently joined this forum, and this is my 1st thread so here goes. When Paul was blinded he asked "Who art thou Lord?" And the Lord said "I am Jesus". Paul later wrote to the Colossian church saying that all the fullness of the Godhead bodily dwelleth in Christ and we're complete in him. Yet, the monotheistic apostle Paul (& John, Peter, etc) wrote extremely often, mostly in greetings, in the manner I have shown below. In the churches that I have been blessed to attend (and currently attend), the word(title)" Father" is almost never used except, and because, as we proudly sing: I know Jesus is the Father, I know Jesus is the Son, I know Jesus is the Holyghost, and all these three are one. Would Paul sing : I know Jesus is the Father..? My primary question is this; If we (his church) have the same theology/revelation as Paul, why does he (& other writers) so persistantly separate the "Father" and the "Lord Jesus Christ", while we, in our speech, conversations, & songs as a whole, do not? Our reasoning: cause "it's all in him". Below are some verses that I have listed. This is a sincere question. Please just answer the question per your opinion, instead of quoting and debating everyone elses postings ( I can learn more from you that way).Thank You and God Bless. Ex: Gal. 1:1 Paul an apostle..., but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father who raised him from the dead.(I know: Jesus said destroy this temple, and 3 days I will raise it, my point of separation remains) Please view below, and then answer my highlighted question. Thanks again.

I think Eliseus summed it up pretty well. Fear. We are afraid of being suspected of promoting trinitarianism if we even hint at differentiating between God and Jesus. And, maybe, we aren't (I'm speaking in general terms) as "secure" in our revelation as was Paul. Let me explain that. A seasoned minsiter (as Paul was) is often alot more "secure" in his biblical training than I am. They have studied, researched, and studied and reseached some more, their doctrinal foundations. A person who attended Bible College is more knowledgeable in doctrinal studies than a person like me who never attended a day of high school. Therefore, a minister if often more "secure" in doctrine then your average lay member. And too, in Paul's day, the NT church was in its infancy... their "vision" was perhaps clearer than ours. He also had access to more literature than we do in this present day. And, we are hampered by the fact that we read the Bible in English... word usages change over time and through translation. Paul had the orginal Greek and Hebrew while we have to depend on what has been translated for us.

I was talking to someone who said, "I don't believe in Matthew 28:19". I answered that I believe it as much as I believe Acts 2:38. I was immediately branded a compromiser and a trinity sympathizer (what ever that is). It is fear that causes people to choose their words so carefully. Fear that their words will be misconstrued. Fear of being labelled a heretic. Paul clearly understood the relationship of the One God with His differing manifestations or offices and had no problem using language that differentiated between the three.

Well, at least thats my under-educated take on things.

And, BTW, welcome to the Forum. Your are a welcome addition!

Also, part of the problem is this (I believe, anyway lol):

A lot of Oneness people, having realised that Jesus is the Father, Son, AND the Holy Ghost, then make an error - they no longer think of Jesus as actually a human being, an individual MAN.

The Bible generally speaks of Christ as a man, far more often than it speaks of Him as God. In fact, when speaking of Him as God, the bible often maintains a distinction between deity and humanity - for example, when it says 'God was manifest in the flesh' we still have a distinction - God (the Father) and 'flesh (the Son).

In the first century, the original disciples spent actual time personally with the Lord. And so they see Him as a man, a teacher, a rabbi, indeed as the Son of David, the prophesied Messiah. As late as John 14 they still had trouble seeing who He was - 'Show us the father, and it sufficeth for us' said Phillip. They saw him with their eyes as a human being (because He definitely was - and is - a human being).

So this is carried over - even after they come to the theological truth that Christ, the human being, is the 'incarnate God', meaning God had taken on a human existence, God had entered this world AS A HUMAN, - still, even after that is understood, they still speak of Him as a man, more often than not. They speak of Him as the Son, as the Lord who came to do the will of God, as the Redeemer who offered Himself to God on our behalf, as the Priest who intercedes for us before God, as the one seated at the right hand of God, and so forth.

They viewed Him primarily as the man God became, rather than as 'God in a body'. I think a lot of people today tend to think of Jesus as 'God in a body' moreso than as 'the man whom God became'. And I think the reason for that is the emphasis that has been placed on His deity as an opposition view to the trinitarian and Arian views has caused some to de-emphasise His humanity to the point that sometimes it gets lost from view.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

Also, part of the problem is this (I believe, anyway lol):

A lot of Oneness people, having realised that Jesus is the Father, Son, AND the Holy Ghost, then make an error - they no longer think of Jesus as actually a human being, an individual MAN.

The Bible generally speaks of Christ as a man, far more often than it speaks of Him as God. In fact, when speaking of Him as God, the bible often maintains a distinction between deity and humanity - for example, when it says 'God was manifest in the flesh' we still have a distinction - God (the Father) and 'flesh (the Son).

In the first century, the original disciples spent actual time personally with the Lord. And so they see Him as a man, a teacher, a rabbi, indeed as the Son of David, the prophesied Messiah. As late as John 14 they still had trouble seeing who He was - 'Show us the father, and it sufficeth for us' said Phillip. They saw him with their eyes as a human being (because He definitely was - and is - a human being).

So this is carried over - even after they come to the theological truth that Christ, the human being, is the 'incarnate God', meaning God had taken on a human existence, God had entered this world AS A HUMAN, - still, even after that is understood, they still speak of Him as a man, more often than not. They speak of Him as the Son, as the Lord who came to do the will of God, as the Redeemer who offered Himself to God on our behalf, as the Priest who intercedes for us before God, as the one seated at the right hand of God, and so forth.

They viewed Him primarily as the man God became, rather than as 'God in a body'. I think a lot of people today tend to think of Jesus as 'God in a body' moreso than as 'the man whom God became'. And I think the reason for that is the emphasis that has been placed on His deity as an opposition view to the trinitarian and Arian views has caused some to de-emphasise His humanity to the point that sometimes it gets lost from view.

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[Hoovie]

Shag, my thoughts along these lines will be a bit controversial.... LOL!

I think we should not only be comfortable praying in the manner of the disciples... but that we SHOULD pray in that fashion ourselves.

Have we received something Christ and His followers did not??

At times, I think we should actually pray the words that Jesus prayed - after all he instructed us to say them...

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name...


It is noteworthy that while Jesus claimed to God (the very God of the Father in Heaven) He did not claim to be the Father.

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

Shag, my thoughts along these lines will be a bit controversial.... LOL!

I think we should not only be comfortable praying in the manner of the disciples... but that we SHOULD pray in that fashion ourselves.

Have we received something Christ and His followers did not??

At times, I think we should actually pray the words that Jesus prayed - after all he instructed us to say them...

2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name...


It is noteworthy that while Jesus claimed to God (the very God of the Father in Heaven) He did not claim to be the Father.

Whooop... dair it is.

Yes sir.

It makes me uncomfortable to think that it would be an awkward thing for someone to word a prayer or a statement in the manner of the apostles.

In my way of thinking it is my opinion that is disposable... not the mindset of the apostles. If I see some of their words that do not speak to my understanding then my understanding goes on trial.