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Originally Posted by Chan
Take a close look at the times in scripture when people found themselves in the presence of God in a seemingly tangible way. What was their response? It was always one of true worship, i.e. humbling and prostrating oneself before God, and not exuberance.
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Wait....they were STILL emotional. Sometimes the presence of God brings somber moods and sometimes it brings rejoicing. The Israelites rejoiced when the ark of the covenant came into the camp. David danced with all his might. Those people back then did not experience what we experienced..
And what is meant by exuberance? Is it rejoicing?
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
In the OT they were fearful because of their sinfulness (see Isaiah). But in the NT we are redeemed! Why isn't rejoicing worship? What makes you think that the only way to worship Him is to grovel on your face?
Act 8:39 And when they had come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught Philip away, so that the eunuch saw him no more. And he went on his way rejoicing.
When Pentecost came there is no indication they all fell on theiir faces. They were sitting and then speaking in tongues.
Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
What criteria are you using for "being in the presence of God" anyways?
Was Samuel in the presence of God when he heard a voice call his name?
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There's a place for exuberance but to use that exuberance as the standard by which we "measure" or otherwise determine whether God "moved" among His people is judging God by human behavior. We in Pentecostal circles have no sense of reverential fear before God.
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Who said anything about this being a standard? It may or may not be a reaction to the presence of God and a part of worship. Rejoicing in God is a part of worship. Rejoicing at what He is doing is a part of Worship. And please speak for yourself and not include me. I DO have a sense of the reverential fear before God and I do see it happening quite often. In fact I saw an entire campmeeting just this last time come to a screeching halt as the visible presence of His Spirit descended on that meeting. All anyone could do was weep and silently glorify Him. Some fell on their faces. Others just magnified Him. I would have fell on my face as well but I would have broke my front teeth on the chair in front of me.
Reverence is not being afraid. It's extreme respect. People often mistake what it means to "fear" the Lord to mean being afraid of Him....not Love.
1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
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The problem, though, is what is being suggested: that God sort of randomly chooses to be present or not present among His people (this notion of God just "stopping by" like dropping in on a neighbor or relative) or that unless we're whipped up into some sort of emotional frenzy GOD wasn't present or "moving" among His people. God is CONTINUOUSLY present among His people and IN each one of us.
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Not at all! First of all that is merely your unfounded opinion that it's random. Did God just randomly visit Abraham one day? Or was it a chosen day!? I disagree with you strongly. There are seasons and times He puts in His own hand. It may be to His own design. On the other hand it may be not that the presence of God came on one particular day, but that it was felt more strongly on one particular day. How that works exactly nobody knows. We are using anthropomorphisms here to describe one service where we feel the presence of God more acutely than at others.
Maybe it's just that we were in more unity. Maybe it's that faith was stronger. Maybe it was in response to strong prayers. God chose the Day of Pentecost to pour out the Spirit....was that random or by design?
I get really really tired of the "whipped up into an emotional frenzy" quip from anti-Pentecostals. It's bad enough I have to hear it from those without faith or those that doubt God still visits His people in a profound way.
It's a shame I have to hear it from those that claim to be Spirit filled.
Davids wife was of that sort. She disdained David for his being whipped up into an emotional frenzy. Usually when I hear that it's by someone trying to resort to mockery.
That's exactly the point and it's not just some people, it's fairly common in
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Are there "moves" of God that aren't powerful?
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Why can't there be moves of God that are MORE powerful to us than others?
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Note Isaiah's emotions when he found himself in the presence of God:
"Then I said, 'Woe is me, for I am ruined! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I live among a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.'"
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Hey...I'd do that too if I did not believe I was already covered by the blood of the lamb and NOT be told that
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren,
boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Those guys only heard of what would come. We experience it. They looked forward to it. We have it! They didn't have that boldness. They had a fearfulness and in Isaiah's case he was clearly worried that God would strike him down like a dog for his sins. We do not have that fear. We have confidence. If anyone lacks that confidence themselves it should not be reflective on everyone
1Jn 3:20 that if our conscience condemns us, that God is greater than our conscience and knows all things.
1Jn 3:21 Dear friends, if our conscience does not condemn us, we have confidence in the presence of God,
I have seen the presence of God in a wonderful way but in DIFFERENT operations. Sometimes it brought great rejoicing and others it brought great introspectiveness and re commitment and other times it just brought profound reverence with the face in the floor kind of groveling
Note Davids reaction. Note Israels Reaction. It's NOT always going to be the same. In the OT they often viewed God in terms of "the terror of the Lord"...In the NT we are told "fear not little flock, for it is your Father's GOOD pleasure to give you the kingdom".
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Note John's reaction when he found himself in the presence of the glorified Christ:
"When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, 'Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,
and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."
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Two things...when John fell was that HIS reaction? Because he does not say "I prostrated myself" he says he fell as a dead man. I've fallen as a dead man before, but the doubter tell me that sort of happening is NOT in the word of God. I did not prostrate myself. I simple fell over like I had just died and had no life in me. It was not me humbling myself. What happened in this case?
Anyways what was Jesus's reaction here? He told him NOT to be afraid.
Dan 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.
This even happened in the presence of an angel. Was it worship or was it fearfulness? And are we talking about actually seeing something that might bring fear like seeing a resurrected Jesus in All his glory, something John did not see before? This is hardly to be compared to having the Spirit of God come into a meeting is it? Sure, maybe if Jesus suddenly appeared to me here in my bedroom out of the blue in all his Glory I'd drop dead too.
How about Annanias? He has a casual conversation with the Lord...not falling dead there
Acts 9.
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I don't believe that really being in the presence of God while we're in our present mortal state is going to bring about exuberance. We Pentecostals have no sense of the fear of God.
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Im sorry to hear that. I DO believe having God's presence in our midst...His Spirit DOES indeed bring rejoicing. It also brings other things such as reverence, introspection, healing, boldness.....It's amazing what happens when the Spirit of the Lord moves in a meeting
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Exuberant praise is biblical but to call our praise a move of God maked God out to be as variable as our emotions.
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What? Who said "our praise is a move of God"? That's asinine! What they are saying is there is much rejoicing and praise in RESPONSE to what God is doing.
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