Faith: How Far Is Too Far?

[gloryseeker]

"But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." (Matt 19:26 - KJV)

There are several scriptures in the Bible that speak of God's ability to do all things. And then there are scriptures like Ephesians 3:20 that God can do, through the power that works in us, exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ask or think.

Assuming that a person is not in greed or selfish gain is there a limit on faith? There are many preachers in the news about their wealth, jets, cars and so forth (remember assuming things are not for selfish gain) is there a limit on what you should believe for?

If all things are possible, then why do we limit God? Isn't God glorified through the manifestation of abundance? Look at Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David, Solomon who were beyond wealthy.

What say you?

[A_PoMo]

Christ's point in Matt 19 that it was exceedingly difficult of rich people to enter the kingdom. Not impossible though, because all things are possible with God, but the deck is stacked against them. The story of the rich young ruler illustrates this problem. God does bless some who are able to overcome this stacked deck, but they are very few and its a part of their spiritual gifting. The promises of wealth in the OT were a part of old covenants made to specific people and specific nation with attendant conditions and cannot be automatically appropriated to us today as NT believers. In fact, as it concerns David and Solomon they were specifically commanded by God not to gather wealth to themselves, yet Solomon's palace was bigger than the Temple itself. In the case of the patriarchs they were wealthy but they also had scores of people, an entire community in fact, to support. Thus their wealth was more of a socialized government of sorts rather than extravagant personal wealth. Jesus told us to not worry about wealth and riches and to store up our treasure in heaven. Not to say that we shouldn't save for a rainy day or be financially irresponsible. But the pursuit of wealth and materialism as a doctrine is, in my opinion, sycrestic as our culture has invaded our worship. God is not a cosmic vending machine whose job it is to cater to our every whim as we insert faith and pull the levers of formulaic incantations so that we can live the American dream. This aforementioned view has legalism at its core.

[gloryseeker]

Good post! However, I would say that I disagree with most of it. I do like the fact that it is well thought out using some examples from the Word.

Let me ask you some questions:

You said, "The promises of wealth in the OT were a part of old covenants made to specific people" - Question: How are you arriving at the "specific people". Under the Old Covenant, while God made covenant with individuals they were not limited to those individuals. The covenant God made with Noah is still active today, etc.

You said, "with attendant conditions and cannot be automatically appropriated to us today as NT believers." Question: How can that which was a foreshadow of what to come not be appropriated to us today as NT believers?

You said, "Thus their wealth was more of a socialized government of sorts rather than extravagant personal wealth." How do you differentiate between the promise of God like in Deut 8:18, and Deut 28 which talks of the blessings of obedience and make it a socialized government?

Final question: While I agree that the pursuit of wealth for the American dream is not biblical, how do you handle scriptures like Galatians 3:13-14, that deals with the blessing of Abraham which included wealth. 2 Cor 9:8 that promises the sufficiency to abound to every good work?

[A_PoMo]

Q1: I said specific individuals (Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc..) AND a specific nation (Israel). Each of the individuals had covenants and some of the provisions extended literally and immediately to their descendants and some of them extended beyond into subsequent covenants and beyond. Some but not all, and the ones that do have support later to show they're still relevant. I'm not sure what you mean by "Old" covenant unless you mean the Mosaic. Yes, there are some aspects and promises of each covenant that carry forward and others that don't in this longitudinal view. Thus support for wealth for NT believers must be found elsewhere and not in OT covenants.

Q2: I'm not sure what you mean by the second question. How is material wealth in an OT promise the foreshadow of material wealth in the NT? Seems it should either be the same promise and thus not a foreshadow at all or if a foreshadow then it should be something else than the original. Either way you'd have to have corresponding support in the NT and that support isn't there.

Q3: I'm not sure of the relevance of Deut 8 to this discussion since it's a promise to the Levitical priests under the Mosaic Law. I suppose you could go up the ladder of abstraction and apply it to us today but you'd need other support for that too but that doesn't change that the passage was written to specific people and not to us. Deut 28 refers to blessings available to Israel if they obey the Mosaic Law, an agreement modeled after the Assyrian suzerain/vassal treaty agreement of the time. It was conditional, not undconditional, and it applied only to Israel, not the church. Again, you might be able to apply principles shown here as long as you have additional NT support, but to apply these as if they were written for NT believers is not an option unless you want to allegorize scripture.

Q4: In Galatians the context seems pretty clear that the it's a single blessing (not all of the them) and that this blessing is spiritual, not material. I'm not sure of the relevance of 2 Cor as it's talking about giving and the abundance has to do with righteousness and grace, not money, and it talks about the Corinthians have "sufficiency" (wealth seems to be more than just sufficiency which in turn seems to dovetail more with Christ's teaching on the subject) the promise is to meet our needs and references an OT passage that talks of poor people. The blessing here is to the poor Christians who needed help from the Corinthians. In turn Paul says that God will meet the needs of the Corinthians. I don't see any promise of overabundance of material wealth here, just abundance of grace and the promise to meet their needs.

Ok, I've answered several of your questions. You say you disagree with most of what I argue. What is your position?

And please forgive me if I don't reply right away. In the next hour I'm going to start a whirlwind of a weekend and may not have time to come back on here right away.

[gloryseeker]

I have been thinking about how to answer your post because to go line-by-line it would be a lengthy presentation and I would guess that most people don't read the REALLY long ones. I know that I don't.

I think I will try to answer most just from my interpretation of the Word.

In your first post your referenced Matthew 19. Looking at Mark's account of the same discussion we find the following:

Mark 10:25-30
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.
28 Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (KJV)

In this passage alone Jesus responds that abundant increase is available to those who put the gospel of Jesus first place in their life and in the world to come eternal life. I am very practical about the Word of God. I believe what I read. I disagree with those who try and eternalize everything meaning that in heaven all the promises of God will be available to us. It is hard for me to conceive that God set up and established Adam and Eve in an environment where they had everything that they could possibly ever need, but because of disobedience to the Word of God (His law) they lost that position of dominion, authority, and abundance. As a remedy Jesus comes, suffers a horrific death, is resurrected for the sole purpose that we can just get by with the hope of one day being in heaven. Everything we could possible need has been provided for us so that we can live in a manner that reflects the glory and power of God.

As we go through the scriptures we see that God has well provided for His people - Old and New Testament people. Most Christians and preachers, who try to make excuses why good people get sick, are broke, struggle try to make some humbling theology out of it that God is trying to teach them something. Typically they simply do not want to face their own faith levels and why they haven't received more.

When I study the scriptures, I do not try to support a denominational position or even confirm what I already believe. I try to find out what God did for me and what He requires of me and where I am missing Him. As I do this it becomes a very amazing thing.

Case in point, I was studying Philippians 4:19 "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus." This was a proclamation made by the Apostle Paul after the Philippians time and time again supported him in his missionary journeys. After studying this, the Lord dealt with my heart about changing my "need." Matthew 6:33 instructs us to "seek first the Kingdom of God" so I decided to make my foremost "need" building the Kingdom of God. Before personal needs is the need to build the Kingdom. God's faithful! After making this decision we have put a LOT of money into our local church, missions, and other projects and the result of this is that we are financially better off than we were before we started.

The promises of wealth are throughout the NT. Look at Eph 1:18:

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, (KJV)

A study of the word "riches" that Paul uses here is NOT a spiritual richness. The Greek word used here is Strong's number 4149 ploutos (ploo'-tos); wealth (as fulness), i.e. (literally) money, possessions, or (figuratively) abundance, richness, (specifically) valuable bestowment.

Let me say that I do agree with one aspect you mentioned. You don't just pull some lever and the pursuit of money, love of money, greed and all of that is against the teachings of the Word, but the promises of supernatural abundance is very evident throughout Old and New Testaments.

The relevance of Deuteronomy 8 is the obedience factor and knowing that it is God Who has given us the power to get wealth, which is for the purpose of establishing His covenant in the earth. The relevance of Deut. 28 is that it is all about what happens to those who are obedient to the Word of God or what happens when one is not obedience.

God's Word has not changed. Sure, we are no longer under the Levitical Law since Jesus died and was the final sacrifice, but we are still under the social law - the 10 commandments were never done away with. Many make the mistake of thinking that the Old Testament is obsolete when in fact what was an abomination to God then is still an abomination and the blessings of obedience then are still blessings today. Remember Jesus' words:

Matt 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)

The relevance of 2 Corinthians 9 and "sufficiency" is that most do not have it. The vast majority of Christians struggle to get by and whatever wealth they have is based on their education and skills not on the power of God in their life. Sufficiency to abound to every good work is to have enough left over that you can do, build, and participate in the establishment of the Kingdom of God. Depending on which statistic is used only about 20% of those claiming to be born again tithe. While they may try to say it is OT or under the law, the reality is they don't want to and they can't afford to. Most Christians struggle to just support the local church. One reason is because they don't have enough left over - no sufficiency.

If all you can do is throw a $5.00 bill in the offering plate you are not supporting missions, you are not helping the poor, you are not giving to those who teach the Word, because you have no sufficiency to abound to these good works, you are spending all you money on yourself.

Wow this ended up long…sorry. I know my view point would be in the minority of Christians, but it works. I am healthy, wealthy, and free and it's not because of my abilities or education. I am blessed!

[A_PoMo]

Sorry to take so long to get back to this. Truthfully, I'd forgotten about it until now.

Anway, let me say from the outset that I agree with more of what you say than I disagree with. I agree with your principle for the most part even if I disagree with your hermeneutics at times.

Mark 10: It's such an odd passage to use I think for your position because it doesn't really cohere. Even more so when Mark has so much to say about poor people being blessed in spite of their poorness. On the one hand JC seems to say we'll get 100X in houses and lands. But then he also says you'll get 100X mothers, and sisters, and brothers and persecutions. That's more than most prosperity guys will want to claim, especially the persecution part. And certainly non of the Apstoles, the original audience, of this passage could lay claim to vast riches although they could testify to persecution. The word used for "houses" here refers more to "home villiage". Thus I think the primary thrust of this passage is that JC is promising a kingdom, a new set of relationships, a new covenent land if the gave up their temporal things to follow him. In the context they were focused on physical, temporal wealth and power and as so often is the case JC was trying to get them out of this temporal thinking to re-imagine his kingdom in a new terms and in doing so he used temporal terms to describe it.

Regarding Adam and Eve they did lose authority and dominion and all that. It's part of the curse. JC came as the new Adam not help us find happiness in temporal things but to show that true happiness and abundance of life is found in the here and now but in a spiritual sense. If you have spiritual contentment then you are truly happy in spite of temporal poorness. I agree, JC didn't just come to die so we could look forward to dying. He intends for us to be happy here, and we can be if we will claim his spiritual blessings and one of those blessings is a de-valuing of wealth. You aren't unhappy about not having things you don't want in the first place. It's only when you feel you "need" them and don't have them that you feel anxious.

In the OT and the NT God made SOME people wealthy, not all. He does this according to his good pleasure and, as you say, its purpose is to bless the kingdom. While there were some people in the OT and NT that were blessed materially by no means can that be seen as a rule for all people in the OT or NT. The Apostle Paul is a prime example. He lived pretty much and to mouth and didn't even have a second cloak. Yet he was happy and learned to live in poverty and in abundance. His happiness wasn't tied to his abundance. Your Philipians verse is a good example of this balance.

Your ref in Eph doesn't work because it isn't referring to this age, it's referring to the coming age. Again, the Deut ref's don't work because they're not written to us. All the Bible is written for us, but not all the Bible is written to us. Perhaps there are some general principles there but I don't think you can use them to support your case. Regarding the OT and jot and tittles and all that, same thing. Sure there are some abominations that are still abominations today (although not all) and the ones we know still apply are repeated in the NT. That's how we delineate the moral law from the civil and ceremonial law in the OT. The blessings in the OT are for the OT people they were written for and they were almost always conditional based on the response of the people in the Assyrian/Hittite suzerain vassal treaty agreement model the OT uses as a pattern. In the same vein, the curses are for them too. If you're willing to take the blessings then you have to accept the curses too. In that case you run into problems as you cannot live by the law of Christ and grace which is what he came to fulfill. In a general sense then the temporal blessings of the OT foreshadowed the better blessings of a better covenant which is spiritual.

I see your point in 2 Cor 9 about sufficiency. But you defend my point when you define "need' correctly. We have to remember that in that time more than 95% of the people in the known world lived in what we would call poverty according to US/Western standards of living. Not even the Senators of Rome lived as finely as many of our citizens. So needs to them were truly needs. And these are the things God has promised to meet for us, needs. Not wants or wishes and luxury. If we have food, clothing, and shelter we have our needs being met. Anything beyond that is luxury by that definition.

That being said though I agree with you that many people think being pious is to be poor. I don't equate piety with poorness any more than I equate wealth with divine approval. They're just not even in the same category. I agree that people should and could give more, especially in our rich Western culture. That we don't is a shame on us. I agree that God will often times reward people financially as they give cheerfully to the kingdom in order for them to be a conduit of financial blessing to various works. But this isn't the norm for everybody. Paul admonished rich people to be generous to the poor and didn't admonish the poor for being poor. The key is to do as you're doing and use your time of abundance to bless the kingdom. But we can't project our gifts onto other people and expect them to be like us. It's not so much a matter of faith as much as it is a matter of place. God has placed us all in varying spots in the kingdom and we're to bless each other in accordance w/his gifting. Rich people can bless poor people with the benefit of their wealth, and poor people can teach rich people a thing or two about the difference between 'needs' and 'wants'.

I could go on but I think you get the picture. I agree w/you in principle and hope that I have several people blessed w/your gift of wealth in my church when I start it.

[gloryseeker]

Took awhile, but good post!

Originally Posted by A_PoMo

I agree with your principle for the most part even if I disagree with your hermeneutics at times.

In all honesty I would say that I am in a major minority in the hermeneutics arena, but I would also say that people are constantly amazed at how the Word works for me.

I have found that most Christians want to eternalize all the promises of God and I just believe that God wants me blessed, healed, delivered, and manifesting His glory. Having said that I'm going to stick with my hermeneutics....they're working.

Mark 10: It's such an odd passage to use I think for your position because it doesn't really cohere. Even more so when Mark has so much to say about poor people being blessed in spite of their poorness. On the one hand JC seems to say we'll get 100X in houses and lands. But then he also says you'll get 100X mothers, and sisters, and brothers and persecutions. That's more than most prosperity guys will want to claim, especially the persecution part. And certainly non of the Apstoles, the original audience, of this passage could lay claim to vast riches although they could testify to persecution. The word used for "houses" here refers more to "home villiage". Thus I think the primary thrust of this passage is that JC is promising a kingdom, a new set of relationships, a new covenent land if the gave up their temporal things to follow him. In the context they were focused on physical, temporal wealth and power and as so often is the case JC was trying to get them out of this temporal thinking to re-imagine his kingdom in a new terms and in doing so he used temporal terms to describe it.

Interesting analysis. I really enjoyed reading it.

Regarding Adam and Eve they did lose authority and dominion and all that. It's part of the curse. JC came as the new Adam not help us find happiness in temporal things but to show that true happiness and abundance of life is found in the here and now but in a spiritual sense.

I would have to disagree with you, and I would think that my disagreement would be a major reason why you disagree with my interpretation of other scriptures.

Most Christians focus on salvation as the purpose, I don't. Salvation is the need. Basis of thought, when God created Adam and gave him all power, authority, and dominion Adam operated or revealed the glory of God in the earth. This is the purpose....the revealing of God.

When Adam sinned there became a "need" which was salvation. Jesus came to break the separation between God and man so that once again man could reveal the glory of God in the earth. 2 Cor 4:7 / Eph 3:20 both speak to the power that operates through us.

This life has nothing to do with happiness or abundance, it has everything to do with revealing God. Many look at Adam/Eve as having lost the garden. They didn't lose the garden, they lost the ability to walk with God. The garden was the benefit of walking with God.

This is where many miss it on the prosperity of God. There are manifestations that take place when one walks with God. My interpretations always stems from the revealing of Christ in us, and not focused on my salvation.

In the OT and the NT God made SOME people wealthy, not all. He does this according to his good pleasure and, as you say, its purpose is to bless the kingdom.

I agree with you that in both the OT and NT some are wealthy and some are not. Where I disagree with you is that the determination of who was wealthy and who wasn't was in the hand of God.

If you are correct then God is a respecter of persons and He has lied. A Covenant is an agreement. In this agreement God states what He will do and what we have to do. Faith is the receiver God gave us to access all of His promises. The ability to be wealthy or not be wealthy is in the hands of the believer.

As one post stated in the tithe thread, "I don't expect anything in return for my tithe." Praise God they won't receive anything, which is also why they struggle. Personally I don't believe, I expect God to hold up His end of the covenant.

Another person made a post that we aren't supposed to own anything expensive....he never will. I do own expensive things and God has given me every one of them. He also knows that if He asks He can have whatever I have. For instance, my wife and I sold a home one time and we were not sure what we wanted to buy so we were temporarily renting. We had kept $28K in the bank for the deposit, costs, fix-ups or whatever. He spoke to me to sow it - we did. No questions, no hesitations. I'll sell my home in a heartbeat if He wants. All I am is a steward of His stuff and He gives me good stuff.

The Apostle Paul is a prime example. He lived pretty much and to mouth and didn't even have a second cloak. Yet he was happy and learned to live in poverty and in abundance.

The Apostle Paul is an interesting character. Many misunderstand him and his ministry. The revelation of grace was revealed to Paul. Grace is another misunderstood aspect, but that's another thread. Paul had a specific ministry:

Acts 9:15-16
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
(KJV)

Part of Paul's calling was to suffer great things for the Name of Christ in order to reveal how grace works. Many try to use the aspect that he had to work to make a case that those in the five-fold should hold down an outside job. However, Paul told the Corinthians that he made them an inferior church because he was not a burden to them. He said, "forgive me for this wrong." (2 Cor 12:13)

You can't look at what Paul suffered and say that we all must suffer in like manner unless you have been called to the same ministry.

...part II in next post

[gloryseeker]

Your ref in Eph doesn't work because it isn't referring to this age, it's referring to the coming age.

This is a prime example how people like to eternalize everything. The reason that I believe people like to eternalize (throw into eternity) is so they don't have to give an account for why their faith isn't working.


Eph 1:15-23
15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which {exists} among you, and your love for all the saints,
16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention {of you} in my prayers;
17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.

• You are not going to need the spirit of wisdom or a revelation of the knowledge of Him in the age to come. You will have by definition of being with Him. We need this now so that we can operate correctly in this world.

18 {I pray that} the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. {These are} in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

• The surpassing greatness of His power is toward us who believe. Do you believe? They this power is for you. This is in accordance with the working of His might, not will be in accordance.

20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead, and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly {places}

• This was brought about when Christ was raised. It is not a future thing, it is a now thing.

21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the one to come.

• "not only in this age" Again this is a now thing!

22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,

• If you are in Christ then you are positioned with Christ, now and also in the age to come.

23 which is His body, the fulness of Him who fills all in all. (NAS)

The church is the fulness of Him. Jesus walked in all power, authority, and dominion. We're His Body and we have the right to walk in everything He walked in because the purpose is to reveal the glory of God. This is why Jesus was the first born of many brethren....I'm one of those brethren!

Again, the Deut ref's don't work because they're not written to us.

I guess I'm like the bubble bee. I'm just foolish enough to believe that it was written for me and guess what.....it works!

All the Bible is written for us, but not all the Bible is written to us.

You'll never experience the promise that you don't believe were written to you.

If you're willing to take the blessings then you have to accept the curses too.

Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
(KJV)

I take the blessings and leave the curse behind

I see your point in 2 Cor 9 about sufficiency. But you defend my point when you define "need' correctly. We have to remember that in that time more than 95% of the people in the known world lived in what we would call poverty according to US/Western standards of living.

I agree with you here. Many will misunderstand me because I believe strongly in the prosperity of the Word and I live it also. But money means absolutely nothing to me. I also know that the poorest of America are typically better off than those of other countries.

But again, money and comfort mean nothing to me. My need is to see the Kingdom of God reach it's fullness. The so called needs of my life are God's responsibility. I have found that He is perfectly capable of taking care of me and my family and He actually does it at a much higher level than I would on my own.

And these are the things God has promised to meet for us, needs. Not wants or wishes and luxury. If we have food, clothing, and shelter we have our needs being met.

Again, this is where I will differ with most people because my focus is not comfort or luxury. However, I expect to fly first class, I expect to eat in nice restaurants (and by the way I am a big tipper), I expect my house to be nice, and I expect to have nice clothes.

Not because of comfort, but because I am a child of the King created to manifest His glory. Which is the better testimony of an Almighty God, driving around in a BMW and being debt free or driving around in a Yugo held together by Christian bumper stickers?

You see, I don't want the God of the Muslims because their god is full of hate and bondage. I don't want the god of the JW because their god doesn't do anything anymore. Why should the world want the God of most born again Christians when the divorce rate is higher within the church than without, Christians can't pay their bills, the number of Christians on anti-depressants is just about the same as non-Christians?

Why is it that waiter/waitresses don't want to wait on Christians? THEY'RE BROKE AND TIGHT! This is not my God. My God is rich, He blesses, and He is not afraid to show it.

I agree that God will often times reward people financially as they give cheerfully to the kingdom in order for them to be a conduit of financial blessing to various works.

It's not a "reward" it's a result. God will not allow His Word to return to Him void. God has bond Himself to His Word. What you believe you will submit to and according to James 4 God give more grace to the humble, submit yourself therefore!

and use your time of abundance to bless the kingdom.

I like the way you word that as though...your time will come to an end and you'll see what I'm talking about.

My time isn't spent blessing the Kingdom, my life is spent on it.

[QUOTE]But we can't project our gifts onto other people and expect them to be like us. It's not so much a matter of faith as much as it is a matter of place.[\QUOTE]

What we are talking about is faith not gifts. While I do believe there is a gift for finances, that is not what we are talking about. Faith receives what grace has provided. We receive from the Lord according to our faith and place has nothing to do with it.

There is nothing in the Word that tells you that you have to be poor. If a person applies the Word, lives right, and operates in faith they will experience increase.

...that I have several people blessed w/your gift of wealth in my church when I start it.

You'll only have it if you teach it. Faith comes by hearing the Word. If the Word they hear is a Word that some will and some won't - they will accept that they can't.

Enjoyable conversation!

[A_PoMo]

Hey, I almost forgot about this thread. Sorry. I'll try to answer it tomorrow. I have school tonight have to finish up stuff in prep for that. Thanks for your patience.

[gloryseeker]

no prob, bono