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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other. |
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03-12-2007, 12:50 PM
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Gimmicks, Programs and Performances
This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:
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Originally Posted by Carpenter
Secondly, and I believe this is the biggest obstacle to fulfilling a true anointing, is the two-fold desire to develop new-fangled programs in which the preacher can take the credit for design. There have been minister after minister come through bringing their 12 Tribe concept of church growth, prayer seminars to enhance church growth and revival, the 12 step program for a closer walk with God, labeling revivals as "crusades" attaching their names to it, plays, poetry, costumes, army men a broken down volkswagon and the apocalypse, the grim reaper, lights camera ACTION! ...yada yada yada.
While the intentions may be fantastic, there is an element of self promotion involved that if it takes root, it means more dates for preaching, possibly a book, a CD, and money money money, name building, name building, LEGACY!
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Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?
I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.
QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?
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03-12-2007, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadfast
This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:
Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?
I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.
QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?
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Coming from a very large and prolific church in the UPC, I have seen just about every program, crusade, and special ministry come through. Interestingly enough churches invent quite a few of these internally.
I saw one form letter from a church and it laid out yet another comprehensive ministry program of "stuff."
I was astounded when I got to the bottom and read who it was from...the person organizing and spearheadding this program is the pastor's daughter who is now the "Pastor" of that ministry-program! I had to laugh. Pastor? Maybe anti-pastor is more appropriate.
Pastor...of a program??
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03-12-2007, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadfast
This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:
Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?
I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.
QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?
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I know of a church that spent 40,000.00 on a man to teach them how to 'Develop the Leaders Within You"...it's been four years, and the whole program was rendered useless, as nothing was 'followed through' with. Appparently the Pastor got tired of holding each of his leaders accountable for their 'role', as there are very few concepts still being used from this program.
Are we as the church, trying to mimic something that we see other secular churches using to 'grow' a church?
Prayer and fasting would still work today- if we would use them as the tools God has placed in our hands.
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03-12-2007, 12:58 PM
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Bro. Y, I'll never forget...
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imo, corporate programs began to grow as individual outreach efforts began to decline and churches sought to find a "stop-gap" fix.... can one locate an instance where the early church had to rely on corporate outreachs? no....
we get our perfect vision for evangelism from Acts 20:20....
Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
the Gospel was spread through the proclamation of Christ in public places (work/marketplaces/etc) and one-on-one in homes....
__________________
"Rules without relationship lead to rebellion." Dr. James Dobson
"You don't need a license to preach, or teach, or win souls." RonB
"In all my perplexities and distresses, the Bible has never failed to give me light and strength." Robert E. Lee (1807-1870)
Never tell a young person that anything cannot be done. God may have been waiting centuries for someone ignorant enough of the impossible to do that very thing. ~ John Andrew Holmes
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03-12-2007, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malvaro
...corporate programs began to grow as individual outreach efforts began to decline and churches sought to find a "stop-gap" fix.... can one locate an instance where the early church had to rely on corporate outreachs? no....
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Great comment here... amazing, in fact.
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03-12-2007, 01:00 PM
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Invisible Thad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steadfast
This was taken from a post by Carpenter on another thread but it stirred up something in me that I think should be seriously considered within the Apostolic movement:
Why DO we rely on gimmicks and programs so much when it should be a natural heartbeat to do these things? Have we just become so performance oriented that we don't function outsideof set requirements of participation?
I think that sometimes programs are effective. Other times I think it's a hindrance to the spiritual disciplines that we should have as a natural part of our walk with God.
QUESTION: Why do we see programs as the answer?
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some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.
I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes
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03-12-2007, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad
some cannot be satisfied with the anointing God gave them.
I know many will not admit it, but many Ideas have been studied and copied from the evangelicals and charismatics and then thrust upon our churches. i don't understand how we are so quick to condemn these people but turn around and impliment many of their programs , styles, Ideas , music, and on it goes
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I have said this sooo many times!!
I think I read somewhere that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's lift up JESUS, and watch HIM draw the masses...
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03-12-2007, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie
I have said this sooo many times!!
I think I read somewhere that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me..." !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's lift up JESUS, and watch HIM draw the masses...
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that scripture about lifting up Jesus is about the cross not if we lift him up.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
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03-12-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker
that scripture about lifting up Jesus is about the cross not if we lift him up.
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I am aware of that...However,
Let me tell ya something...when we begin to 'lift HIM up' through praise, and we begin to magnify HIM, instead of our own agendas- HE will draw the lost.
There ARE parallels in his word.
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03-12-2007, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annie
I am aware of that...However,
Let me tell ya something...when we begin to 'lift HIM up' through praise, and we begin to magnify HIM, instead of our own agendas- HE will draw the lost.
There ARE parallels in his word.
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Gotcha, just a misapplication of that scripture when we apply it to such.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
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