Dear Kansas Preacher,

[Nahum]

I appreciate you, and wish you would stay.

I have not been around as long as you have, but I can understand the sense of vestment you have felt toward the organization, and how hurt you must be at the direction we have taken.

I wish you nothing but the richest favor of God.

PP

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I appreciate you, and wish you would stay.

I have not been around as long as you have, but I can understand the sense of vestment you have felt toward the organization, and how hurt you must be at the direction we have taken.

I wish you nothing but the richest favor of God.

PP

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.

[J-Roc]

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.

I don't understand it....well first of all I don't understand such an emotional attachment to an organization of men that was meant to unify us to be stronger so we can spread the Apostolic message everywhere. This resolution does not change that at all. If anything it enhances it. The org though became more about control then it did about unifying to spread the gospel.

I think we lost sight of what the organization was supposed to be to begin with. We looked at the org as a means of controlling others. We grew an organization rather than allowing the organization to facilitate spreading the word. As a result we fell way behind other orgs like the AOG. We worried more about growing the organization, adding more rules to it. We worried about politics. We failed to understand what the organization was for to begin with.

My oppinion

[Brett Prince]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I don't understand it....well first of all I don't understand such an emotional attachment to an organization of men that was meant to unify us to be stronger so we can spread the Apostolic message everywhere. This resolution does not change that at all. If anything it enhances it. The org though became more about control then it did about unifying to spread the gospel.

I think we lost sight of what the organization was supposed to be to begin with. We looked at the org as a means of controlling others. We grew an organization rather than allowing the organization to facilitate spreading the word. As a result we fell way behind other orgs like the AOG. We worried more about growing the organization, adding more rules to it. We worried about politics. We failed to understand what the organization was for to begin with.

My oppinion

Prax, respectfully, I think you miss the point.

Men have placed great sweat, tears, blood, energy, money, etc., into camp grounds, Bible colleges, church buildings, all the time believing that they were giving to something they believed in ardently. Now, they feel that all their work has been hijacked, or that their father's and mother's work, or their old pastor's work, has been hijacked, and now all of these assets to the Kingdom is being handed over to those who don't hold to the values that they hold to. It feels like theft. It makes them feel violated. It is NOT the org. It is what they have put INTO the org, and cannot have if they leave. If they want to keep the use of these things, they have to be willing to be part of something that believes differently than they--that has a lifestyle different from their own. They see the path now towards even more things that they don't believe in. It hurts them deeply.

These are good men. These are men who have preached a message that you have received, and likely would have never found had they not. These are men who had little chance for education but wanted better for the next generation of preachers. Some of these know what it is like to sleep in a tent, set on a rough hewn pew, and sweat with air conditioning, but through their labor of love--in their olden age they were going to enjoy something better, and their children, both physically and spiritually would do the same.

But, I am almost certain that these men will walk away, heads held high, a tear in their eye, and with a heavy heart--but they will not attempt to destroy that which they have loved. I believe they will go in peace. And, may the Lord richly bless them. They are MEN.

Sorry to wax so passionate, but this is a day that shall be long remembered. I choose to stay, but my hat is off to those who helped make us what we are, but who will no longer be among us. I am saddened, but I am encouraged by their strength and conviction.

[Hegavmelif]

Originally Posted by Brett Prince

Prax, respectfully, I think you miss the point.

Men have placed great sweat, tears, blood, energy, money, etc., into camp grounds, Bible colleges, church buildings, all the time believing that they were giving to something they believed in ardently. Now, they feel that all their work has been hijacked, or that their father's and mother's work, or their old pastor's work, has been hijacked, and now all of these assets to the Kingdom is being handed over to those who don't hold to the values that they hold to. It feels like theft. It makes them feel violated. It is NOT the org. It is what they have put INTO the org, and cannot have if they leave. If they want to keep the use of these things, they have to be willing to be part of something that believes differently than they--that has a lifestyle different from their own. They see the path now towards even more things that they don't believe in. It hurts them deeply.

These are good men. These are men who have preached a message that you have received, and likely would have never found had they not. These are men who had little chance for education but wanted better for the next generation of preachers. Some of these know what it is like to sleep in a tent, set on a rough hewn pew, and sweat with air conditioning, but through their labor of love--in their olden age they were going to enjoy something better, and their children, both physically and spiritually would do the same.

But, I am almost certain that these men will walk away, heads held high, a tear in their eye, and with a heavy heart--but they will not attempt to destroy that which they have loved. I believe they will go in peace. And, may the Lord richly bless them. They are MEN.

Sorry to wax so passionate, but this is a day that shall be long remembered. I choose to stay, but my hat is off to those who helped make us what we are, but who will no longer be among us. I am saddened, but I am encouraged by their strength and conviction.

When you say 'men' it is understood that you are referring to 'preachers'. For the last 25 years I have given an annual average of 25 percent of my net income. That would amount to about a million and a half dollars. This organization and the ministry has benefited directly from the money I gave to God. The 'men' you refer to are not the only ones who have invested blood, sweat and tears to this movement. The dollars are only a part of what my family has invested in this movement - we have taught Sunday School, held fund raisers, created and chaired building campaigns, led and worked with youth and all of which was donated time above and beyond what we gave to our employers, families, home, and communities. The term 'men' should represent the men and women of the pew as well!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Brett Prince

Prax, respectfully, I think you miss the point.

Men have placed great sweat, tears, blood, energy, money, etc., into camp grounds, Bible colleges, church buildings, all the time believing that they were giving to something they believed in ardently. Now, they feel that all their work has been hijacked, or that their father's and mother's work, or their old pastor's work, has been hijacked, and now all of these assets to the Kingdom is being handed over to those who don't hold to the values that they hold to. It feels like theft. It makes them feel violated. It is NOT the org. It is what they have put INTO the org, and cannot have if they leave. If they want to keep the use of these things, they have to be willing to be part of something that believes differently than they--that has a lifestyle different from their own. They see the path now towards even more things that they don't believe in. It hurts them deeply.

These are good men. These are men who have preached a message that you have received, and likely would have never found had they not. These are men who had little chance for education but wanted better for the next generation of preachers. Some of these know what it is like to sleep in a tent, set on a rough hewn pew, and sweat with air conditioning, but through their labor of love--in their olden age they were going to enjoy something better, and their children, both physically and spiritually would do the same.

But, I am almost certain that these men will walk away, heads held high, a tear in their eye, and with a heavy heart--but they will not attempt to destroy that which they have loved. I believe they will go in peace. And, may the Lord richly bless them. They are MEN.

Sorry to wax so passionate, but this is a day that shall be long remembered. I choose to stay, but my hat is off to those who helped make us what we are, but who will no longer be among us. I am saddened, but I am encouraged by their strength and conviction.

I understood that. I think it's absurd. They aren't the only ones that put time and effort into an organization. It seems childish to me that if one group does not get it's way it's gonna be insulted and walk....the liberals could and have done the same thing. This resolution does NOT force them to accept the TV.

That is what is wrong with the UPC. It has become what was supposed to be a United effort to spread the Apostolic message around the world to a concerted effort to control the thoughts of all UPCers.

We should get rid of the Affirmation statement to begin with. We should return to our roots when we were still in the AOG and were full on against creeds with unbiblical language or terms and make only the bible our standard. We never should have attempted to leash or control our churches from using all possible means of evangelism and growth.

This org should have been bigger, but instead of being unleashed to focus on evangelism it has been mired in rules and legalism and political fighting for control

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I can understand, also, how difficult this must be on those who have invested their tears, sweat, finances, time and lives into the organization. I'm sure they will prayerfully make the proper decisions and do what their conscience dictates.

It is a difficult thing. You work your whole adult life investing in something and then it seems that you have to loose all of your labor. A lot of men went through this in 1992. I personally went through it several years later.

My only consolation was the knowledge that in the end, the Truth would triumph. We really have to take a view of things that is so large that our own lives and labors are puny and insignificant. Otherwise we run the risk of setting ourselves up for a continual parade of bitter disappointments.

[Barb]

Integrity is a precious thing. It's value in the life of anyone, and in particular in ministry, cannot be measured in human understanding.

So valuable is integrity that it cannot and should not be discarded or treated lightly, for when it is gone, it is almost impossible to retrieve it.

I admire those who stand firm in convictions and don't warble between "is it sin or weight?!" For everyone who follows their own will and deceptive way, there are many more who will not bend or bow.

In my almost 56 years of living I have known many with this virtue, and there are many on this board with this God given integrity, as well many more in the United Pentecostal Church who are not a part of this forum.

The decisions you will make in the days to come may not be easy, but I pray they will be in the divine will of the Lord.

Whatever you decide, may you know that the Church of the living God is with you, praying God speed.

[mizpeh]

I hope and pray that all the conservatives will prayerfully consider what you may be about to do. You don't have to compromise your convictions to remain in fellowship with those who hold to the basic tenets of your faith. A walk of love and tolerance will create a bridge between the things that divide you. I pray God will give you peace, guidance, and blessing in whatever decision you make.