The Theology of Music

[Pneuman]

I have been thinking and searching the scripture a lot about music for the last few months. Since we no longer fellowship with the UPC I am re-establishing (or trying to) myself on the word of God and trying to get rid of all the oppressive teachings of men that I have received over the last 20 years.

OK, the Bible says very little about music, and yet is filled with music throughout, mostly for the purpose of worship, but not solely. I should start with some of the things that were crammed into my head as an adherent to the UPC:

1. Satan was the music leader in heaven and so he masterfully uses music to deceive us.
2. All music is worship, and if it is not worship to God then it is worship to something.
3. If music has a beat that makes you want to move then it is evil.
4. All syncopated music is of the devil.
5. All music that is in a minor key is of the devil.
6. If music doesn't bring the presence of God it is of the devil.
7. There is no such thing as "Christian" rock and roll. The term rock-and-roll was a '50s term for fornication and any music called by the same name is of the devil.
8. If a song doesn't mention the name of Jesus (in some form) it is not a Christian song.


There are more, but this is probably a good start. The problem is, none of these teachings are in the scripture. The Bible does not differentiate between "good" music and "bad" music, but does give a glimpse of music used for "good" (worship) and music used for "bad" (Nebuchaznezzar, at the sound of .... bow down and worship the image). So, apparently music can be used for either. We did not get the "bad" music recorded from the Babylonian King so we don't know if it was in a minor key, had a syncopated beat, or was rock style music, nor did it have words (meaning of course all classical music is evil).

A couple of things I have just picked up personally that I wanted to sun by everybody.

1. Music is another way of dialog; another way to communicate a message to another person or communicate with God. In this way, music is no different than other form of communication. We use communication to talk to God (prayer), but we do not limit communication to prayer only, we use communication for many purposes. Communication is not evil if every dialog does not have the name of Jesus in it, nor do we condemn a conversation for its tonal qualities or meter. People who teach the doctrines above tell us that music is only supposed to be worship to God because that is all we see in the scripture, but if this holds true then all communication should be about Jesus as well because all the communications in the scripture are only about God. We have to be careful what we deduct from the Word of life.

2. I can't prove this with scripture, but being a musician most of my life I can testify to the fact that people receive messages put to music in a way that dialog alone does not always produce. It seems that music enhances the ability to communicate a message. Experts in elementary education tell us that children will remember things that are put to music faster than they will things that are just taught verbally. Some say this is just a memory issue and that music triggers the memory in a way that verbal instruction does not. I think this gives us reason to sort the music we listen to by the message that it communicates. For instance, I should filter out any music that teaches or glorifies actions that are opposed to scripture, or of course songs that are openly satanic or worship of other gods.

3. And what about Christian liberty? Since I left the UPC I have tried out several types of music and several bands that I was told were evil, only to find they were not all bad, at least for me. I find also that my wife does not share my liberty with all of this music. There are some bands that are listed as "Christian" that for me bring a presence that is not the presence of God, and being an ex-satanist this is not something I want to allow in my life. Then there is other music that has a good message that does not bring a wash of the presence of God, but does not bring any other kind of presence either; it is just sort of neutral (spiritually speaking), but the message is either positive or encourages correct behavior. So, where Christian liberty is concerned, should I be able to listen to music according to my conscience? Is Romans 14:22 in effect where music is concerned?

Am I missing anything? Please, I just want Biblical thoughts and real spiritual experiences here ... if you want to bash me for my "backslidden" thinking, please consider posting in another forum.

Thanks/Pneuman

[obriencp]

I've always struggled with this kinda thing too. I'm a musician and have essentially given up hopes having a music career because it was drilled into us that we could only listen to and play church music. I'm past all that now, but still wonder about things such as the things you pointed out.

Music is in all culture and can be used to celebrate, mourn, tell stories, and so forth. I do believe, although i can't find it in scripture, that the israellites in the old testament must've had music and dancing outside of "church." I'm sure they didn't limit all other forms of music outside of sacred music.

Sure there are things we shouldn't listen to and places we shouldn't go, but can't we let the believer be lead by their convictions?

Also, with regards to musicians, pay, and a living, i have a few beefs. Many churches want and expect the best musicians, but are unwilling to pay for that. I understand if they simply can't afford it, but don't preach against playing for money in the world if that's their only income. Are plumbers only supposed to work on church plumbing? Are accountants only supposed to work on the church books? C'mon, let's be real. If we want professional level musicians, more than likely they listen to and study music/musicians outside of holy music. More than likely they spend many hours a week practicing their craft and probably play secular music for fun or for a living. That doesn't mean they're using their talents to glorify sin or worship satan. How are saved musicians supposed to let their light shine to the unsaved musicians?

Too many years of putting "church" in front of everything has lead to people opting out of careers where they travel, work on the occasional Sunday, work in entertainment, etc. "You shouldn't be a nurse because you'll miss too much church." "You should quit your job because they've put you on evenings and you're missing bible study." It's these kind of examples that have taken the light out of some career fields and put the damper on talented people that could be out winning souls.

BTW, i was an un-paid praise and worship leader and music minister for years. I played the occasional gig, but was made to feel guilty about it from church leadership. I attended college on a full-tuition music scholarship, but upon graduation realized that family came first and being a working musician had it's struggles. I fell out of contact with many of the guys I used to play with. I miss playing, but i'll get back into it once the kids get a little older.

I guess i'll end my rant now.

[Michael The Disciple]

I would like to see worship like this in Oneness Churches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zen4TL2m59E

Music gets to the depths of our lives in such a way as hardly anything else.

I listen to 90% Christian music and like it that way. Before Christ I was steeped in what is now called "classic rock" and folk music. I have found Christ to fill the desires of my life and have no longing for the music I once loved.

Having said that every now and then I like hearing songs that are just great songs. Every now and then my wife and I put on some 50's doo wop and do some slow dancing.

Now if I were "driven" to listen to other music I would be concerned. Im sure you know its not just about not doing certain things but about abiding in Jesus. Making him the center of our life.

I have a playlist of songs from the 60's and 70's that got me thinking about Christ tho they were not Christian songs. I like to reconnect with that feeling sometimes.

If your life is immersed in Christ you will sense if he is displeased with something you do.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I would like to see worship like this in Oneness Churches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zen4TL2m59E

Great music. Thanks MTD. This is real worship music IMO. Seems like when I first got into the UPC way back when,music was more worshipful than when we left, where it was just a bunch of repeating, hypnotic beats.

[Pneuman]

n david,

The numbered items were not learned in one church, they are a compilation of teachings that I have heard from many different sources over the 20 years I was in the UPC. I can't think of one person that holds all of these. And yes, I was in a very conservative church. I don't listen to secular, or any other style of radio, I only listen to formats with which I have a portion of control (Spotify, etc.). If that scripture (judged for every idle word) applies to speech, should it equally apply to song? Should the same standard be applied to both? Again, should the same standard be applied to both where eating meats is concerned? I have no problem allowing God be my guide, but if that was all we needed then we wouldn't need the scripture. I agree we should allow God to guide us, but part of the way He does that is through teaching.

So if we assume all these things, now what? If a new convert comes to me and asks me to teach them about music, what do I teach?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

n david,

The numbered items were not learned in one church, they are a compilation of teachings that I have heard from many different sources over the 20 years I was in the UPC. I can't think of one person that holds all of these. And yes, I was in a very conservative church. I don't listen to secular, or any other style of radio, I only listen to formats with which I have a portion of control (Spotify, etc.).

Spotify is awesome! I'm a paid subscriber so I can have it on my phone and be able to "download" playlists. I love being able to select songs and add them to playlists. It beats having to pay for a cd just to get one or two good songs. Growing up, I was criticized for listening to Carman. My youth pastor confiscated a cassette I had of Carman, Commissioned and the Christ Church Choir. Can you believe that?

Originally Posted by Pneuman

If that scripture (judged for every idle word) applies to speech, should it equally apply to song? Should the same standard be applied to both? Again, should the same standard be applied to both where eating meats is concerned? I have no problem allowing God be my guide, but if that was all we needed then we wouldn't need the scripture. I agree we should allow God to guide us, but part of the way He does that is through teaching.

It's a good question on how to apply that verse, and if it applies to more than just idle words. IMO we will be judged by everything we do, word, deed, thought...everything. That's not to say we can't enjoy ourselves and listen to music that isn't for praise and worship to God. There are a lot of times when I remember, "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O God."

Part of God being your guide and being led by the Spirit is through reading the Bible. I don't believe one is without the other. Prayer and the word are how we are led by the Spirit.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

So if we assume all these things, now what? If a new convert comes to me and asks me to teach them about music, what do I teach?

Southern Gospel, twangy, hillbilly music is of the debbil! I apologize if that's your favorite genre. I have heard some ministers say that southern Gospel music was the only Godly music genre around. I couldn't tell if they were joking or serious.

IMO, music is best when used in worship to God. Nothing is more moving than a song with lyrics of worship to God, sung by people who are pouring their love out to Him.

Carman had a well-known saying I heard him say at every concert: "Garbage in, garbage out." It's true. What you fill your mind with will have an effect on your spirit.

[Praxeas]

Good grief. We should change the forum name to "Bash the UPC (and pretend you aren't)"

[Pneuman]

Originally Posted by n david

Spotify is awesome! I'm a paid subscriber so I can have it on my phone and be able to "download" playlists. I love being able to select songs and add them to playlists. It beats having to pay for a cd just to get one or two good songs. Growing up, I was criticized for listening to Carman. My youth pastor confiscated a cassette I had of Carman, Commissioned and the Christ Church Choir. Can you believe that?


It's a good question on how to apply that verse, and if it applies to more than just idle words. IMO we will be judged by everything we do, word, deed, thought...everything. That's not to say we can't enjoy ourselves and listen to music that isn't for praise and worship to God. There are a lot of times when I remember, "Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in thy sight, O God."

Part of God being your guide and being led by the Spirit is through reading the Bible. I don't believe one is without the other. Prayer and the word are how we are led by the Spirit.


Southern Gospel, twangy, hillbilly music is of the debbil! I apologize if that's your favorite genre. I have heard some ministers say that southern Gospel music was the only Godly music genre around. I couldn't tell if they were joking or serious.

IMO, music is best when used in worship to God. Nothing is more moving than a song with lyrics of worship to God, sung by people who are pouring their love out to Him.

Carman had a well-known saying I heard him say at every concert: "Garbage in, garbage out." It's true. What you fill your mind with will have an effect on your spirit.

LOL ND!

Allow me to be carnal here for just a moment:

Jake Blues: What kind of music do you play here.
Bar Owner: Both kinds, country and western!

OK, now that I have that out of my system!

I listen to and play all kinds of music. I am not really into the Southern stuff, although I like some Crabb family and a few others, and it is my wife's fave (yes she has horns and carries a pitch fork). Love doing worship, well most of it anyway, and play Bass in our worship band at church. I listen to a large variety ... some stuff that would be considered more on the christian pop cultural side (Casting Crowns, Big Daddy Weave, Jeremy Camp) and even some of the lighter stuff (Kari Jobe, Laura Story, PCD, etc), but there are times I want to rock out a little (there I go using that heathen term again) and I throw on some of the harder stuff (Fireflight, Decyfer Down, Flyleaf, Ashes Remain, Red, Nine Lashes, etc.), and have even been known to occasionally make a foray into music that is by people who claim to be Christian playing music that does not have the name of Jesus in it (these people claim to be trying to reach people for Christ but that they can't playing Christian music because they would get stigmatized, and I can clearly see that. Bands like Paramore, 12 Stones, Icon for Hire, The Letter Black, etc.).

My position is, and will always be, that church should have the best worship music in the world. My question is, however, how much time do we spend ministering to ourselves, and what would the church look like if everything we did was with a mind to reach the lost and not just to keep ourselves saved. Would our music change any if there was a chance we could see more people turn to Jesus? How does that look? Are we afraid to go there because we might lose our food on the way?

Funny story about Carmen. He was one of the first Christian musicians I heard when God saved me. The person who turned me on to him shortly after received a "revelation" that she should only listen to music put out by UPC artists. And help everyone else to the same standard.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Pneuman

I have been thinking and searching the scripture a lot about music for the last few months. Since we no longer fellowship with the UPC I am re-establishing (or trying to) myself on the word of God and trying to get rid of all the oppressive teachings of men that I have received over the last 20 years.

OK, the Bible says very little about music, and yet is filled with music throughout, mostly for the purpose of worship, but not solely. I should start with some of the things that were crammed into my head as an adherent to the UPC:

1. Satan was the music leader in heaven and so he masterfully uses music to deceive us.
2. All music is worship, and if it is not worship to God then it is worship to something.
3. If music has a beat that makes you want to move then it is evil.
4. All syncopated music is of the devil.
5. All music that is in a minor key is of the devil.
6. If music doesn't bring the presence of God it is of the devil.
7. There is no such thing as "Christian" rock and roll. The term rock-and-roll was a '50s term for fornication and any music called by the same name is of the devil.
8. If a song doesn't mention the name of Jesus (in some form) it is not a Christian song.

Part in bold...what UPC church did you go to???? 90% of music even in ultra-conservative UPC and WPF churches have a beat and are syncopated. In over three decades of being in the UPC in nearly a dozen church in 3 states, I've never heard 3, 4, 5, 6 or 8. I've been a worship leader and musician going on 30 years this year. I have heard 1, 2 and 7.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

1. Music is another way of dialog; another way to communicate a message to another person or communicate with God. In this way, music is no different than other form of communication. We use communication to talk to God (prayer), but we do not limit communication to prayer only, we use communication for many purposes. Communication is not evil if every dialog does not have the name of Jesus in it, nor do we condemn a conversation for its tonal qualities or meter. People who teach the doctrines above tell us that music is only supposed to be worship to God because that is all we see in the scripture, but if this holds true then all communication should be about Jesus as well because all the communications in the scripture are only about God. We have to be careful what we deduct from the Word of life.

Well, the Bible does say whatever you do in word and deed, do all in the name of Jesus. It also says we will give account for every idle word spoken. Just putting that out there.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

2. I can't prove this with scripture, but being a musician most of my life I can testify to the fact that people receive messages put to music in a way that dialog alone does not always produce. It seems that music enhances the ability to communicate a message. Experts in elementary education tell us that children will remember things that are put to music faster than they will things that are just taught verbally. Some say this is just a memory issue and that music triggers the memory in a way that verbal instruction does not. I think this gives us reason to sort the music we listen to by the message that it communicates. For instance, I should filter out any music that teaches or glorifies actions that are opposed to scripture, or of course songs that are openly satanic or worship of other gods.

I definitely agree with this. As a parent, I have learned and read a lot about how music helps the growth and learning of a child. It's incredible what my daughter can learn through music that takes more time through simple, non-musical repetition. They say the eyes are the gateway to the soul; I say music is the gateway to the mind. We should be led by the spirit, and filter both christian and secular bands and songs through the spirit of God.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

3. And what about Christian liberty? Since I left the UPC I have tried out several types of music and several bands that I was told were evil, only to find they were not all bad, at least for me. I find also that my wife does not share my liberty with all of this music. There are some bands that are listed as "Christian" that for me bring a presence that is not the presence of God, and being an ex-satanist this is not something I want to allow in my life. Then there is other music that has a good message that does not bring a wash of the presence of God, but does not bring any other kind of presence either; it is just sort of neutral (spiritually speaking), but the message is either positive or encourages correct behavior.

I hate most of the secular music today. Seriously. It's junk. I even tried listening to KLOVE and some other christian radio station out here and couldn't do it. I'm not against listening to the radio or secular music, but most of it today is just trash. It does nothing to edify my spirit. You're right, even some Christian music does nothing. I used to listen to Tupac and Biggie back in the day, so even "Christian" rap like Lecrae, Tedashi, and others are difficult for me to listen to.

Originally Posted by Pneuman

So, where Christian liberty is concerned, should I be able to listen to music according to my conscience? Is Romans 14:22 in effect where music is concerned?

I know it sounds cliche, but it's true. Led the spirit of God be your guide. Personally, you can listen to whatever music you want to, so long as you allow the spirit of God to guide you. Now, with others, I would be more cautious and not allow your liberty to be a stumblingblock to them.

[obriencp]

just for the record, I wasn't bashing the UPC. I was just commenting on my experiences in a single church that had been part of two different organizations neither of which were UPC.