If believing is enough

RevDWW · #1 05-28-2007, 08:05 PM

If believing is enough then why this narrative in Acts 8?

Quote:

Acts 8:5 - 25 (KJV)
5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Why did they Apostles need to lay hands on them?
What was the evidence that the Holy Ghost was given?

Praxeas · #2 05-28-2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

If believing is enough then why this narrative in Acts 8?

Why did they Apostles need to lay hands on them?
What was the evidence that the Holy Ghost was given?

Believing or Faith in the bible does not mean what many people think. It does not mean a mere mental recognition that something is true. If that were the case the devils were believers.

RevDWW · #3 05-28-2007, 08:08 PM

So if they were baptized, that must have been water baptism, as the Holy Ghost baptism had not come on them yet. Correct?

mizpeh · #4 05-28-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

So if they were baptized, that must have been water baptism, as the Holy Ghost baptism had not come on them yet. Correct?

Correct.

15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Is this the baptism of the Spirit or the initial infilling of the Spirit? is there a difference? Some folks make an issue of these terms. Which one is equated with receiving the Spirit, because neither baptism nor infilling is used in the passage.

SDG · #5 05-28-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Believing or Faith in the bible does not mean what many people think. It does not mean a mere mental recognition that something is true. If that were the case the devils were believers.

Exactly ... believing in hebraic sense means a lot more than mental assent ....

mizpeh · #6 05-28-2007, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Believing or Faith in the bible does not mean what many people think. It does not mean a mere mental recognition that something is true. If that were the case the devils were believers.

What does it mean, Prax?
Do you believe in 'saving faith'? and what is saving faith as opposed to the run-of-the-mill faith? Did Simon have faith according to the Bible when the scripture said:

12 But when they believed [the Samaritans] Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

I've been told that the Samaritans didn't really have saving faith because if they had they would have received the Holy Spirit when they believed. (an evangelical's summation). So when Luke wrote the Samaritans believed, He did not mean they had 'saving faith' because no one is saved without having the Spirit of Christ. To say that IMO would cast doubt on every place in the NT where it is said someone believed. How can one tell if the faith they have is enough to save them or not?

These people in Acts 8 believed the gospel and didn't have the Spirit. This doesn't jive with what PCI or the Baptists or any of the easy believism folks say. How did Philip know these folks had not received the Spirit? Why wasn't it assumed that they recieved the Spirit WHEN they believed if that is when regeneration takes place?

Sam · #7 05-29-2007, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mizpeh

...
These people in Acts 8 believed the gospel and didn't have the Spirit. This doesn't jive with what PCI or the Baptists or any of the easy believism folks say. How did Philip know these folks had not received the Spirit? Why wasn't it assumed that they recieved the Spirit WHEN they believed if that is when regeneration takes place?

This does jive with a PCI one-stepper believes. When the Samaritans believed they were saved/regenerated. That meant that Jesus entered their hearts as the Holy Spirit. They were born of the Spirit but not baptized in the Spirit. The PCI belief is that the Holy Spirit regenerates/saves when a person believes in the heart that Jesus is risen from the dead (Romans 10:9-13, 1 John 5:1). The HGB (Holy Spirit Baptism) can happen immediately or later. -PCI folks say the apostles and others were saved before Pentecost but received the HGB at Pentecost. Peter was filled again in Acts 4:8 and again in Acts 4:31. There is no mention of tongues at those subsequent fillings.
-PCI folks believe the Samaritans saved when they believed Philip and received the Word (Jesus). They proved or demonstrated that faith by being baptized in Jesus' Name. Later they received the HGB through the laying on of hands. Tongues are not mentioned but are implied in that something happened there that impressed Simon more than healings or miracles. Also, Peter told him he had no part in that matter/speaking/utterance (Acts 8:21).
-PCI folks believe Saul was saved/born again on the road to Damascus when he believed Jesus was risen from the dead (because he saw him) and then called Him Lord and submitted himself to Him. Three days later he received the HGB and was water baptized (Acts 9:3-18).
-PCI folks believe Cornelius and others got saved as they heard Peter preach and then they began rejoicing and received the HGB. Afterwards they were water baptized (Acts 10:34-48)
-PCI folks believe that people in Macedonia got saved/born again when they believed and they demonstrated this faith by being baptized (Acts 16:14-15, 31-34)
-PCI folks believe that the folks in Corinth were saved when they believed and then they were water baptized (Acts 18:8). There is no record of their receiving the HGB here but they must have because Paul later wrote to them that they were enriched in all utterance (same word as in Acts 8:21 ) and they came behind in no gift. Actually, he had to teach them how to regulate those gifts in the assembly.
-PCI folks believe those Baptist disciples got saved when Paul explained the Gospel to them. They then got baptized in Jesus' name. Then when Paul laid his hands on them they received the HGB (Acts 19:1-6)

RevDWW · #8 05-29-2007, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sam

They were born of the Spirit but not baptized in the Spirit.

Is that like a baby being born, but only really living after they take a breath?

Sam · #9 05-29-2007, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Is that like a baby being born, but only really living after they take a breath?

no

SDG · #10 05-29-2007, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Is that like a baby being born, but only really living after they take a breath?

We're back to these physical analogies again as if it's bible .... Jesus said what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the Spirit is of the Spirit .

BTW ..... just to play along .... The baby was living since conception ... and can receive oxygen thru the placenta