KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Adino

I am still waiting, with you, to see someone present a reasonable case that it does.

Pelathais, without John 3:5 what passages do you rely on to connect water baptism to the new birth? Or maybe you do not and I've misunderstood some of your previous posts. Don't worry, I'll not turn this thread into a baptismal debate. Just curious.

I am not astute enough to battle you gentlemen, so I will just ask my one question.


Given the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and given that Romans plainly stated that as we are buried with him in baptism, that we are raised again with him from the dead to live in newness of life, how can anyone take water baptism out of the equation? It is were the old man is put asunder. Until it occurs, we continue to carry around this "body of death".

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

I am not astute enough to battle you gentlemen, so I will just ask my one question.


Given the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and given that Romans plainly stated that as we are buried with him in baptism, that we are raised again with him from the dead to live in newness of life, how can anyone take water baptism out of the equation? It is were the old man is put asunder. Until it occurs, we continue to carry around this "body of death".

Those are good points Matt. Personally I would not argue that we take water baptism out of "the equation." My point is simply, John 3:5 is not the verse that we would use to try and show the importance of water baptism.

The poster named "Light" called anyone who disgreed with him on this "pigs." I politely tapped him on the shoulder and asked, "Can you show me water baptism in John 3:5." At that point the "Light" went out. And we still await someone who can show us water baptism in John 3:5 and its context.

Here's some help for the PAoJCers: David Bernard tries to make this case in the older editions of his book The New Birth.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Adino have you heard anything from our mutual friend?? I was thinking of him and his family today. His father asked me to preach for him I just don't know if I will? But if I choose to I would like to meet you.

Only that he is in Tennessee and has had some difficult times. I've not seen him since his wife died. I don't think his marriage soon after worked out. I'm under the impression he has his boys with him.

If you ever make it up this way I'd be happy to meet. Maybe I'd even visit the Davidson's church to hear some fire and brimstone preachin'.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Given the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and given that Romans plainly stated that as we are buried with him in baptism, that we are raised again with him from the dead to live in newness of life, how can anyone take water baptism out of the equation? It is were the old man is put asunder. Until it occurs, we continue to carry around this "body of death".

I would point to baptism as the first "works meet for repentance" enacted by one who has repented and believed the Gospel. The heart of repentance and faith was declared to all in baptism. Salvation was declared in baptism.

John who taught the baptism of "repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3) [i.e., the baptism which declared remission of sins in repentance] asked men to repent and to bring forth "works/fruits meet for repentance" (Matthew 3:8, Luke 3:8, also Paul in Act 26:20). I would suggest that the quickening of the soul which took place the moment of conversion was dramatized in the act of baptism. The act signified a change of lifestyle. It signified a putting away of the old and an embarking on the new. The regeneration which took place within the confines of the soul was to produce regenerate behavior "worthy of/meet for" repentance. Regenerate behavior is engendered by the regenerate heart. The person submitting to baptism is declaring that regeneration has occurred by faith. He is declaring his salvation.

The man saved by the Gospel was to "work out his own salvation" meaning he was to let his behavior be reflective of the salvation he possessed through faith. Baptism was a picture of this resurrection to new life. I would stress that it did not effect new life, but that it was only an external outcropping and/or by-product of the new life existing in the heart by faith.

I do not take baptism "out of the equation" for proper Christian behavior. I do take it "out of the equation" for salvation before God.

[berkeley]

KH does indeed believe in the light doctrine. Guess I'm a few pages too late. ha

[Raven]

Amen, and I'm with you on that Adino. Good, clear, sound, statement!
Raven

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Raven

Amen, and I'm with you on that Adino. Good, clear, sound, statement!
Raven

which one in specific?
could it be Adino's closing a post or so back?
I do not take baptism "out of the equation" for proper Christian behavior. I do take it "out of the equation" for salvation before God.

Raven,
which statement are you applauding as
good,
clear
and sound?

[Raven]

Originally Posted by tbpew

which one in specific?
could it be Adino's closing a post or so back?
I do not take baptism "out of the equation" for proper Christian behavior. I do take it "out of the equation" for salvation before God.

Raven,
which statement are you applauding as
good,
clear
and sound?

Yes, his closing post that you highlighted. Clear and concise!
Raven

[SDG]

I do not take baptism "out of the equation" for proper Christian behavior. I do take it "out of the equation" for salvation before God.

Good statement.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Good statement.

So, Jesus makes extra-salvational demands of folks?

Ya'll need to jump on him for that like you do when you see something preached that is extra-biblical!