KH believes the Light Doctrine??

[Scott Hutchinson]

I haven't read all of these posts but if one has true faith in Christ it produces works,as faith without works is dead.Faith is first and then works follow faith,if what we do is not motivated by faith,then our motives are misguided.

God looks at the heart and judges us by motives.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Peter said of the flood of Noah's time:

"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 3:21).

The waters of baptism don't save us. They may remove dirt from the body, but that's not really the point of baptism. There's nothing "magical" about the act. According to Peter (who preached Acts 2:38), what saves us is our repentance (an "appeal to God for a good conscience") and the work of Jesus Christ.

I have a different take on this verse.

1) baptism saves us....literally....just as Noah was saved by water in a figure or type
2) the water itself does nothing. Baptism is not a cleansing of the flesh like the cleansing of the flesh in the OT law that purifies but..
3) we are baptized because it is our answer to God as a result of a good conscience
4) we obtained that good conscience through faith and repentance through grace
5) this verse doesn't explain how baptism saves us

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind
Aquila, do you not believe in Acts 2:38 as the Bible way of salvation?

Do you not believe in Baptism in Jesus Name being essential?

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

Let me make my questions easier to answer. (mark one box)




______________Yes




______________No

I apologize that I didn't respond quickly. I left work and decided that I should pray and meditate upon what the Lord would have me say. In life things don't always fit into our "Yes" or "No" boxes. Let's consider John Huss, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, John Wesley. John Huss was executed by the Catholic Church because, among other charges, after reading the Bible he became convicted that the Catholic doctrine of the bread and wine literally becoming the body and blood of Christ was error. He believed they were in memorial and representative of the body and blood. This man lost his life over the theological definition of bread and wine. Wycliffe made great sacrifices and fielded an onslaught of denunciation and condemnation merely for wanting to see the Bible translated into English. Tyndale was strangled to death and his body burned for taking a stand against many unbiblical doctrines of the Catholic church. Before dying he prayed that God would open the eyes of the King of England...a prayer answered in the King James Bible. John Wesley preached a strong repentance and holiness doctrine. During his sermons people would fall into the floor and weep, sobbing, and speaking in unintelligible words in brokenness. John Wesley even commented that he didn't understand this phenomenon but believed it was a grace of God operating in their midst. Many of our interpretations and customs in regards to our holiness teachings are based largely in part upon Wesley's methods of holiness living. Wesley was strongly condemned for meeting in open air meetings and preaching the gospel outside of the sacred walls of the Church of England. He was denounced strongly and faced much criticism...

We wouldn't be what we are today if not for these men. How unthankful, and greatful can we be, sitting here with all our truth like, please forgive me, spoiled children questioning the salvation of men who have shaped our practice and even provided the very Bible we use today? Take away every blessing and contribution made by someone who wasn't Apostolic and friend...you wouldn't have a church. Without these men you'd not have a Bible to read tonight. You wouldn't even hold the holiness convictions of dress and adornment you may hold as we speak. We've lived with so much truth at virtually no cost that we sit high and mighty unable to grasp what God was doing through these men.

These men had only a little light. They had only a little undersanding of truth. Yet they walked in all the light they knew with everything they had, yes 100% of their person. Yet we have so much light...we have so much understanding...yet we amble and meander through this marvelous light daily, rarely with as much dedication and devotion these men had. Jesus put it like this:

Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

Here's the part that convicts me...

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:"

Do I believe it's essential to preach the full Apostolic message? Yes. Do I relegate all Christians who have never heard or understood this message to a burning Hell? No. Personally I will let the Lord be their judge. I'd rather get to Heaven and Jesus tell me that I was far too merciful in dealing with other Christians than get to Heaven and be told that I was too judgmental and condemnatory. I get no enjoyment out of saying that John Huss, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, and John Wesley didn't make it because they didn't believe it exactly like we do. I want to believe they did make it. I will dance with Tyndale on streets of gold if I get to Heaven and find him there. I'll not be upset if God had mercy on his soul because of the fact that the Bible and it's truths were hidden by decree and distortion by the Catholic church for nearly a thousand years.

Seeing that unto whom much is given much is required...I sincerely fear that we (those of us who have this marvelous light) have a greater chance of being lost than maybe those who have lived before us.

So please understand, I believe that God alone is the judge of men's souls. Is the full plan repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and Holy Ghost baptism? You know it is. It is absolutely essential that we preach the full gospel and let God be the judge.

Here's a chart to study if you'd like to take a look.
http://home.att.net/~jrd/Seven_Church_Ages.gif

[Aquila]

You know...had the institutional church of the day listened to their Reformers, had the people following these reformers not institutionalized their Reformers message....we might have had a global Pentecostal Revival in 1600 and not had to wait until 1906 and 1914 for the restoration of Apostolic truth.

We are the church the Reformers were pressing toward. We are the global last days revival.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by pelathais

We should be careful how closely we parse the NT's language. The passage that you mention goes on to say that signs would follow those "who believe." Does this mean that there are no signs that follow those who are baptized?

There is a natural flow to language. We should let that flow continue throughout the passage. To insist that a single verse here and there be understood with a very wooden literalism, and then the very next verses have a broader meaning is inconsistent.

Peter said of the flood of Noah's time:

"Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ..." (1 Peter 3:21).

The waters of baptism don't save us. They may remove dirt from the body, but that's not really the point of baptism. There's nothing "magical" about the act. According to Peter (who preached Acts 2:38), what saves us is our repentance (an "appeal to God for a good conscience") and the work of Jesus Christ.

Exactly correct and well stated.

My point in miquoting the scripture was to underscore the way some people believe it. In stead of Jesus saying, "He that beleiveth and and is baptized, shall be saved...," some evidently Jesus meant to say, "He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized..."

Your point in the physical act of baptism does absolutely nothing for us except to wet the body is well taken. It can do NOTHING for anyone in the spiritual sense except there be a inward work of faith and obedience in taking Jesus as Lord.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I apologize that I didn't respond quickly. I left work and decided that I should pray and meditate upon what the Lord would have me say. In life things don't always fit into our "Yes" or "No" boxes. Let's consider John Huss, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, John Wesley. John Huss was executed by the Catholic Church because, among other charges, after reading the Bible he became convicted that the Catholic doctrine of the bread and wine literally becoming the body and blood of Christ was error. He believed they were in memorial and representative of the body and blood. This man lost his life over the theological definition of bread and wine. Wycliffe made great sacrifices and fielded an onslaught of denunciation and condemnation merely for wanting to see the Bible translated into English. Tyndale was strangled to death and his body burned for taking a stand against many unbiblical doctrines of the Catholic church. Before dying he prayed that God would open the eyes of the King of England...a prayer answered in the King James Bible. John Wesley preached a strong repentance and holiness doctrine. During his sermons people would fall into the floor and weep, sobbing, and speaking in unintelligible words in brokenness. John Wesley even commented that he didn't understand this phenomenon but believed it was a grace of God operating in their midst. Many of our interpretations and customs in regards to our holiness teachings are based largely in part upon Wesley's methods of holiness living. Wesley was strongly condemned for meeting in open air meetings and preaching the gospel outside of the sacred walls of the Church of England. He was denounced strongly and faced much criticism...

We wouldn't be what we are today if not for these men. How unthankful, and greatful can we be, sitting here with all our truth like, please forgive me, spoiled children questioning the salvation of men who have shaped our practice and even provided the very Bible we use today? Take away every blessing and contribution made by someone who wasn't Apostolic and friend...you wouldn't have a church. Without these men you'd not have a Bible to read tonight. You wouldn't even hold the holiness convictions of dress and adornment you may hold as we speak. We've lived with so much truth at virtually no cost that we sit high and mighty unable to grasp what God was doing through these men.

These men had only a little light. They had only a little undersanding of truth. Yet they walked in all the light they knew with everything they had, yes 100% of their person. Yet we have so much light...we have so much understanding...yet we amble and meander through this marvelous light daily, rarely with as much dedication and devotion these men had. Jesus put it like this:

Luke 12:47-48
47And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

Here's the part that convicts me...

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:"

Do I believe it's essential to preach the full Apostolic message? Yes. Do I relegate all Christians who have never heard or understood this message to a burning Hell? No. Personally I will let the Lord be their judge. I'd rather get to Heaven and Jesus tell me that I was far too merciful in dealing with other Christians than get to Heaven and be told that I was too judgmental and condemnatory. I get no enjoyment out of saying that John Huss, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, and John Wesley didn't make it because they didn't believe it exactly like we do. I want to believe they did make it. I will dance with Tyndale on streets of gold if I get to Heaven and find him there. I'll not be upset if God had mercy on his soul because of the fact that the Bible and it's truths were hidden by decree and distortion by the Catholic church for nearly a thousand years.

Seeing that unto whom much is given much is required...I sincerely fear that we (those of us who have this marvelous light) have a greater chance of being lost than maybe those who have lived before us.

So please understand, I believe that God alone is the judge of men's souls. Is the full plan repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and Holy Ghost baptism? You know it is. It is absolutely essential that we preach the full gospel and let God be the judge.

Here's a chart to study if you'd like to take a look.
http://home.att.net/~jrd/Seven_Church_Ages.gif

Apart from disagreeing with the chart that you linked to your post, I find that your posts here is probably one of if not the finest, thoughtful and wisest on this thread so far. You said what I believe very well.

Now, just a note of clarification in regard to another thread that I never had a chance to respond to. I am an American Christian but I am not a hypenated American Christian as in American-Christian. Paul was both a Benjamite and Christian too but he was not a Benjamite-Christian. I am a Republican Christian but not hyphenated. LOL...

No need to answer.

[Aquila]

LOL

[A.W. Bowman]

I do so enjoy witnessing the softening of hearts and true expressions of humility. To see dogma giving way to love, compassion, and understanding. I love seeing attitudes moving away from decrees, ordinances, and statutes and start moving more toward relationships.

This has been the message all along, even from the Garden. We just can't bring ourselves to believe that it is so easy. All we have to do is say, Yes.

We get saved today just like everyone got saved before the advent of Christ. Knowing that we cannot reconcile ourselves to God by our own effort or strength, we place our full trust and confidence in God's promises. We keep all of the Law and the commandments by our act of loving our God with all of our mind, heart, soul, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.

Provision was made by God for even those who had never heard of the God of Abraham or knew of His Law. He gave them the evidence of creation all about them and made them to be a law unto themselves.

God is calling His people out of every tongue and kindred - not just from the Oneness movement. Every one who is seeking, knocking, asking, and searching for the face of God shall not be disappointed. Those who will be shocked are those who think they "have made it" according to their own standards of spiritual achievement.There is a word of difference between those who simply call Jesus, "Lord", and those who call upon His name, as Lord.

The greatest Bible based teaching on the absolute deity of Jesus Christ that I have ever heard was given by Dr. R.C. Sproul, a Presbyterian Theologian. I have heard almost as many Trinity preaches refer to Jesus as "God" as I have Oneness preachers. Perhaps it is time to stop justifying ourselves for being kicked out of the AoG fellowship sixty years ago and start practicing what we preach. This "us and them" thing was started over the baptismul formula, not over how many gods are there in a nonexistent Godhead.

It is time for us to focus on what was to be our first love. It is time to take the most powerful sermon ever preached and integrated it into our very beings. Mat. 5,6 & 7. The Law exposed for what it has been since before creation, and shall continue after the creation of the new heaven and earth.

When Peter was speaking to the Jews (and later to Cornelius, a man knowledgeable in Hebrew things) he told them to under go a mikvah. Sometimes translated as baptism. How many can give a teaching on what a mikvah really is, when, why and how it is to be performed, and by whom?

We question how many step does it take to get saved? We discuss the methods and process that need to be performed in order to fulfill all of the requirements of some prescribed ritual. Let us look behind the Law, ordinances, and statutes, and look into the heart of God. But, that my dear friends, requires true courage. I am not so sure that I am up to that.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Aquila

You know...had the institutional church of the day listened to their Reformers, had the people following these reformers not institutionalized their Reformers message....we might have had a global Pentecostal Revival in 1600 and not had to wait until 1906 and 1914 for the restoration of Apostolic truth.

We are the church the Reformers were pressing toward. We are the global last days revival.

First, I am not convinced that the Apostolic Truth has been fully restored as yet.

Secondly, I do not believe that we are the global last days revival. We have made the same mistake as the early reformers did...we've institutionalized our churches by the many denominations that has the same affect that other reformed churches before us. Denominationalizing a move of God as always in times past, has the effect of swallowing the death pill.

Too often a move of God will get under way but when the people then refuses to follow on in the light by obedience to the revealed light deferring to traditions and opinions of men...

Amo 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by HaShaliach

I do so enjoy witnessing the softening of hearts and true expressions of humility. To see dogma giving way to love, compassion, and understanding. I love seeing attitudes moving away from decrees, ordinances, and statutes and start moving more toward relationships.

This has been the message all along, even from the Garden. We just can't bring ourselves to believe that it is so easy. All we have to do is say, Yes.

We get saved today just like everyone got saved before the advent of Christ. Knowing that we cannot reconcile ourselves to God by our own effort or strength, we place our full trust and confidence in God's promises. We keep all of the Law and the commandments by our act of loving our God with all of our mind, heart, soul, and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.

Provision was made by God for even those who had never heard of the God of Abraham or knew of His Law. He gave them the evidence of creation all about them and made them to be a law unto themselves.

God is calling His people out of every tongue and kindred - not just from the Oneness movement. Every one who is seeking, knocking, asking, and searching for the face of God shall not be disappointed. Those who will be shocked are those who think they "have made it" according to their own standards of spiritual achievement.There is a word of difference between those who simply call Jesus, "Lord", and those who call upon His name, as Lord.

The greatest Bible based teaching on the absolute deity of Jesus Christ that I have ever heard was given by Dr. R.C. Sproul, a Presbyterian Theologian. I have heard almost as many Trinity preaches refer to Jesus as "God" as I have Oneness preachers. Perhaps it is time to stop justifying ourselves for being kicked out of the AoG fellowship sixty years ago and start practicing what we preach. This "us and them" thing was started over the baptismul formula, not over how many gods are there in a nonexistent Godhead.

It is time for us to focus on what was to be our first love. It is time to take the most powerful sermon ever preached and integrated it into our very beings. Mat. 5,6 & 7. The Law exposed for what it has been since before creation, and shall continue after the creation of the new heaven and earth.

When Peter was speaking to the Jews (and later to Cornelius, a man knowledgeable in Hebrew things) he told them to under go a mikvah. Sometimes translated as baptism. How many can give a teaching on what a mikvah really is, when, why and how it is to be performed, and by whom?

We question how many step does it take to get saved? We discuss the methods and process that need to be performed in order to fulfill all of the requirements of some prescribed ritual. Let us look behind the Law, ordinances, and statutes, and look into the heart of God. But, that my dear friends, requires true courage. I am not so sure that I am up to that.

The doctrine of sola-fide (justification by faith alone) is that article upon which the church stands or falls, and upon which you and I stand or fall.