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  #301  
Old 12-16-2007, 07:49 PM
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Felicity Felicity is offline
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Originally Posted by Apprehended View Post
Somehow I just knew that you and I agreed.

Thanks.
You're welcome.
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  #302  
Old 12-16-2007, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind View Post
With due respect to you Sam- you are one of the boards better members. You are not a Jesus-name Pentecostal. If you were, you would have issues with the FS&HG baptism.
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  #303  
Old 12-16-2007, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
Kenneth Haney believes the Light Doctrine?
So what?

I'm sure there are many, many pastors, teachers, saints in Apostolic churches who believe in the Light Doctrine.

Bishop G.T. Haywood taught that folks who were not in the Bride of Christ would receive eternal life at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Bro. S.G. Norris taught at the Apostolic Bible Institute that folks who were not in the Bride of Christ would receive eternal life at the Great White Throne Judgment.

Bro. F.E. Curts, Supt of the Ohio District for many years, and a man considered a "Bible Teacher" by many, taught that folks who were not in the Bride of Christ would receive eternal life at the Great White Throne Judgment.

I personally heard both Brother Norris and Brother Curts teach this. I read it in Bishop Haywood's book on the resurrection.

These men were considered "great men" among Apostolics and had a lot of influence over the years. Whether you believe in the Light Doctrine or not, it is a valid theology in our Apostolic ranks.
Bro Ellis My dad believed this as well:

Bro. F.E. Curts, Supt of the Ohio District for many years, and a man considered a "Bible Teacher" by many, taught that folks who were not in the Bride of Christ would receive eternal life at the Great White Throne Judgment.

He would have been taught this from Bro Curts.

I have heard it on my dads tapes on Revelations...
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  #304  
Old 12-16-2007, 11:48 PM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
You cannot say without a doubt that no one obeyed Acts 2:38 for 1813 years. You cannot prove it either way. Neither can I.
I can't say without a doubt that there's NOT a zebra in my coat pocket hanging by the door. But I am reasonably certain that there isn't. I can't prove to you right now that I won't be struck by lightening before finishing this post, but I'll keep going any way.

Why go to work tomorrow? You can't even prove that you'll make it there alive. Why take the risk on the highway? Why get a flu shot? People die every year from a flu shot and yet good doctors keep recommending them. Why not ride the flying unicorn that just might appear in your yard tomorrow? You can't prove that one won't. If one doesn't what about the next day, or the next? Does it make sense to keep waiting for the flying unicorn just because you can't prove that he won't ever show up?

Why not spend the mortgage money on lottery tickets? You can't prove that you won't win, but you CAN prove that your odds will be greater than if you only spent a dollar. The only certainty is you will never win if you never play. Take out a loan, max your credit cards, skip all of your bills and buy lottery tickets, no one can prove that you won't win! But is this a reasonable financial plan? Of course not.

In those 1,813 years of church history we have records of literally 1,000's of different beliefs. One belief that is missing is the "Water & Spirit" teaching of modern OP's. Maybe some illiterate Amazonian tribe from the 1200's held that belief. Maybe a sailor was shipwrecked on the Antarctic ice shelf during the 1500's and had the revelation shortly before he froze to death.

We do know that nobody in Christendom reported this belief from the time of the closing of the NT until Arroy Seco. Nobody. And we do know that the "evidenced by speaking in other tongues" teaching was the fervent work of a single man, Charles Fox Parham. A man whose reputation and other teachings caused OP's to expel him from their reporting until the late 1930's. The whole Topeka event with Agnes Ozman and all was lost for decades in the 20th century.

And the history of OP's is full of such "edits." At one time all UPC ministers were required to read PCI literature. That requirement was removed without comment or discussion. Entire books like the Pentecostal Home Study Guide were rewritten to hide this fact.

Several false histories of the church were invented with fictional accounts of OP's in history. Marvin Arnold and the books Ancient Champions of Oneness and After the Way Called Heresy contained embarrassing fabrications.

So, since we do know that Pentecostals in general, and OP's in particular, have been hiding their true history while fabricating a false one, how should I interpret the "hidden record" of Oneness Pentecostals. With this kind of a track record for deceit, why should we take anyone's word without first getting some evidence to back it up?

No, I haven't asked every soul that lived, but it is reasonable to conclude that OP's did not exist during those 1,813 years. In fact, you're more likely to win the lottery than to find an OP organization existing during that time period. And I don't recommend buying lottery tickets.
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  #305  
Old 12-16-2007, 11:57 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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If this works, I will attach a copy of G.T. Haywood's book on the resurrection. He includes the "holy, righteous, and wicked" teaching in it.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf ResurrectionGTH.pdf (50.7 KB, 7 views)
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  #306  
Old 12-16-2007, 11:57 PM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barb View Post
Pela, I thought I had the answers until folks shot my 'evidence' to pieces, An Apostolic History Outline by Bro. Marvin Arnold, citing it's inaccuracies.

However, my lack of hard, in your face evidence does not cause me to doubt.

I cannot believe that the Church began with repentance, baptism in the Name, and Spirit infilling, ceased to exist through the so-called Dark Ages of history, only to return in the 20th century.

Call me delusional, but I just believe it continued through the ages of time...
Israel had her times of revival and apostacy. So has the church. I believe that that church has had almost 2000 years of apostacy. There may have been individuals here and there who may have even called themselves Trinitarian who truly understood the truth. For example John Calvin claims to believe in the Trinity but denounced the papacy and it's interpretation of it. Calvin was reaching into the light. Many Catholic "mystics" and Methodists experienced "ecstacy" that when described sound like Holy Ghost experiences. God still reached individuals and maybe a small number here and there...but for the large part the Church was in apostacy.

Then the Revivals came,

Lutheran Church - AD 1517: Saw - Justification by faith...

Presbyterian Church - Ad 1536: Saw - Communion as a Memorial...

Congregational Church - AD 1580: Saw - Separation of Church and State...

Baptist Church - AD 1609: Saw - Water Baptism by Immersion...

Methodist Church - AD 1739: Saw - Personal Holiness...

Christian Church - AD 1820: Saw - Baptism for Remission of Sins...

Trinitarian Pentecostalism - AD 1900: Saw - Baptism of the Holy Ghost - Evidence: Speaking with Tongues as in Acts chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost...

AD 1914 Invasion of Apostles Doctrine from 33 A.D.!
The revelation of God in Christ (ONENESS), and the truth of baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ by immersion for the remission of sins brought the fire of Apostolic Christianity into full focus again to the Church Father Christians and the Reformation Christians!

It was a Restoration of the Church. This is perfect in timing because considering today's population explosion there are more people alive now than have ever lived in all human history. More people have the opportunity to hear the full gospel of Jesus Christian than ever before.

There are two schools. One teaches that the Apostolic truth existed in complete form consistantly down through the ages. They claim that spurious heretical groups were "Apostolic"....even though a number of them were polygamous, believed in Egyptology, etc. The second school is known as Restorationism. It teaches that shortly after the generation of the Apostles wolves entered into the flock and Satan invaded the church. From that day forward Satan attempted to destroy every glimmer of revival that began to appear with great persecutions. Eventually with the advent of the printing press God began to move and restore His Church to it's first century Apostolic glory. It sees a consistant building of revelation and understanding down through the persecutions and reformations culminating in the Apostolic Church of today.

Personally, I lean Restorationist simply because I'd rather trace my heritage through Reformers like Tyndale, Wycliffe, Whitefield, Knox, Wesley, etc. than these obscure cultic groups that may or may not have been Apostolic. An interesting note: When Tyndale was translating the Bible into English, there were a group of priests who he met with regularly who were searching the Scriptures and finding errors in Catholic Doctrine. Interestingly enough these men, though they didn't have full truth, called themselves the Apostolic Brethren.

We are the Church the Reformers were striving for....a Church based entirely on Scripture alone. We are the product of the Reformation! Don't fear the Reformers...thank God for them.
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  #307  
Old 12-17-2007, 12:03 AM
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Sam Sam is offline
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If this works, attached is a chart similar to what Bro. Norris used to show the decline and restoration of Apostolic truth.
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File Type: pdf 7_Church_Ages.pdf (89.2 KB, 8 views)
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  #308  
Old 12-17-2007, 12:04 AM
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Hoovie Hoovie is offline
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I am just sooo fortunate to have come on the scene when the fullness of truth was restored. WOW.
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Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945

"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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  #309  
Old 12-17-2007, 12:05 AM
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pelathais pelathais is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
If this works, I will attach a copy of G.T. Haywood's book on the resurrection. He includes the "holy, righteous, and wicked" teaching in it.
You know Sam, I obviously don't have the authority to do so... but I'm just going to step out and and make a new forum rule.

You cannot post unless you continue to include a PDF or other format of a document like the one from GT Haywood that you just shared. You seem to have a stash that is missing from my collection.

I know that among the admins I can get BOOMM to say Amen! So get to work!

(Just kidding of course... but I reserve the right to bring it up again, my friend!) LOL!
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  #310  
Old 12-17-2007, 12:06 AM
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You may notice in the chart and in a previous post that the doctrine of baptism for the remission of sins came from the Campbellites. How many want to admit this?
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