Is This an Attempt to Control Your Pulpit?

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I am amazed why any self respecting person would want to subject themselves to all of that political, controlling garbage. Are there really grown men so infatile that they can't think for themselves at all? If so, maybe they should be locked up in a nut house.

Sir, don't you think that is just a teeny bit too strong?

There are a variety of reasons some stay. I think for myself. It gets me in trouble quite often, but I do think for myself.

[Nahum]

Whole Hearted thinks for himself and is made fun of for it.

I disagree with almost everything he says, but at least he is consistent and passionate about his beliefs. I can deal with that much better than blind lemmings who run after every "Elder" who spouts extrabiblical garbage.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Sir, don't you think that is just a teeny bit too strong?

There are a variety of reasons some stay. I think for myself. It gets me in trouble quite often, but I do think for myself.

You are right.

It was a little strong, indeed too strong. However, let there be no doubt in which direction that I lean. If holding credentials is the exclusive basis of fellowship, I can't express the contempt and disdain that I feel on that attitude. Whatever happened to the cross? Doesn't that mean anything to anyone anymore...speaking of preachers thinking for themselves.

But, that seems to be the attitude held by the vast majority of the ecclesiastical elite. In the end, the penalties of self-exaltation will not be very pretty.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

I am amazed why any self respecting person would want to subject themselves to all of that political, controlling garbage. Are there really grown men so infatile that they can't think for themselves at all? If so, maybe they should be locked up in a nut house.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Sir, don't you think that is just a teeny bit too strong?

There are a variety of reasons some stay. I think for myself. It gets me in trouble quite often, but I do think for myself.

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

You are right.

It was a little strong, indeed too strong. However, let there be no doubt in which direction that I lean. If holding credentials is the exclusive basis of fellowship, I can't express the contempt and disdain that I feel on that attitude. Whatever happened to the cross? Doesn't that mean anything to anyone anymore...speaking of preachers thinking for themselves.

But, that seems to be the attitude held by the vast majority of the ecclesiastical elite. In the end, the penalties of self-exaltation will not be very pretty.

I will address the two comments in bold.

First, isn't that the entire purpose of organization? For like-minded individuals to band together for a common purpose? The difference now is where once we had a loose fellowship within the org, and fellowshipped many independents, now we are TOLD who we can and cannot fellowship. That smacks of imperialism.

You are absolutely correct on the second point. There is no denying it. Those who choose to build their own kingdom to the detriment of the Lord's kingdom are gonna pay for it in the end. God is not gonna share His glory with anyone.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Brother Strange

If holding credentials is the exclusive basis of fellowship, I can't express the contempt and disdain that I feel on that attitude. Whatever happened to the cross? Doesn't that mean anything to anyone anymore...speaking of preachers thinking for themselves.

It is quite a marvelous thing to observe and consider.

PP indicated this idea earlier in the thread and my consideration does seem to find agreement with his musings:
"...UPC is moving further into strict denominationalism"

It fascinates me how the base things of the human condition are so inclined toward establishing rule by few over many. Natural governments that are vital to the BELOW realm are dragged into the newness of life that is in the Kingdom of God, the body of his Christ. God makes residence in the heart's of individuals, and yet there is still a determined subset of folks who are given over to a great force; man's desire to assert governance/rule over others.

But, that seems to be the attitude held by the vast majority of the ecclesiastical elite. In the end, the penalties of self-exaltation will not be very pretty.

IMO, the end will be identical to the 'former' and it will be subject to all the rivalries, contentions, and strife that has occassion within the carnal mind.

Whether the denomination of the rule is by persons in offices or by "binding contracts" within the alliance, it will displace the individual's liberty and accountability in the Spirit with a governance by men.

This attempt to "codify agreement" is a wonderful move away from a ministerial fellowship and a notable step towards a backdoor denominal structure (men don't rule over other men...the bylaws/manual/AS does).

I do not fault naturally-minded folks for wanting a homogenous group for their children and family to be associated with, but let's NOT proclaim that this group is authored and crafted by God's hand. Let's just be open and upfront with our establishing premise; it is a group of folks governed by men for some specific purpose shared by the participants.

The word CLUB sounds rude or crass to some folks when applied to our assemblies where God is the supposed common denominator...but why can't we just say these are God-themed CLUBS run by men?

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sherri

If a pastor is so insecure that his saints cannot visit other churches (on off-nights), then he must not be putting out very good stuff. We don't have Sunday night service, and some of our people attend various other Spirit filled/Pentecostal churches in town on Sunday nights. We sure don't get our feelings hurt or get paranoid.

If they are supposed to be a part of this body, then they will eventually be miserable anywhere else. If they are supposed to be a part of another body, then they will eventually be miserable here.

I'm just reading this thread now for the first time and INSECURITY is what popped into my head as well. Started to post and then I thought I'd wait and read more of the thread first ...... but you nailed it Sherri.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by tbpew

It is quite a marvelous thing to observe and consider.

PP indicated this idea earlier in the thread and my consideration does seem to find agreement with his musings:
"...UPC is moving further into strict denominationalism"

It fascinates me how the base things of the human condition are so inclined toward establishing rule by few over many. Natural governments that are vital to the BELOW realm are dragged into the newness of life that is in the Kingdom of God. God makes residence in the heart's of individuals, and yet there is still a determined subset of folks who are given over to a great force; man's desire to assert governance/rule over others.



IMO, the end will be identical to the 'former' and it will be subject to all the rivalries, contentions, and strife that has occassion within the carnal mind.

Whether the denomination of the rule is by persons in offices or by "binding contracts" within the alliance, it will displace the individual's liberty and accountability in the Spirit with a governance by men.

This attempt to "codify agreement" is a wonderful move away from a ministerial fellowship and a notable step towards a backdoor denominal structure (men don't rule over other men...the bylaws/manual/AS does).

I do not fault naturally-minded folks for wanting a homogenous group for their children and family to be associated with, but let's NOT proclaim that this group is authored and crafted by God's hand. Let's just be open and upfront with our establishing premise; it is a group of folks governed by men for some specific purpose shared by the participants.

The word CLUB sounds rude or crass to some folks when applied to our assemblies where God is the supposed common denominator...but why can't we just say these are God-themed CLUBS run by men?

Amen.

I inwardly smirk (because I'm smarmy like that) when I hear men treat elected officials as if God Himself placed them there. Truth is someone campaigned better than someone else, just happened to have the right name or connections, and met the age requirements necessary to fill the office.

Consider this (and it's scary), we are told there are 400,000 adherants in North America. How many of them are intermarried? Everybody is related to everybody. Sometimes the path to the finest position is through marriage.

And I'm not joking.

[chaotic_resolve]

Originally Posted by Straightline

Amendment - Instead of "has occurred" will need to be changed to, "has been proven through the UPCI judiciary process". Otherwise, speculation and spurious information will harm a man that could be innocent of the charges.

It should be changed, but won't be.

This is actually old news. I remember wanting a youth evangelist to come to my father's church, but the DB found out about it and gave my father a huge fit because he had just pulled out of the UPC.

Somehow it was sorted out and he was able to come. That was over 12 years ago.

[DividedThigh]

my friends i just read this entire thread, and i have to say that all of you who say that this is a problem will be turned out on your ears, real soon, if you havent allready, cant turn me out, turned in my card 15 years ago, still glad i did, dt

[tbpew]

I really appreciate this area of topical discussion. IMO, it provides a bright light to shine within the understanding of member-ministers who fellowship a ministerial alliance concerning what so many "non-members" ponder in the local assemblies.

I submit for consideration that the angst produced by these types of disconnects is the same stirring that is among many of the anointed members of God's body that are participants in local assemblies. A perception that a few are legislating (codifying) to maintain uniformity and agreement as the basis for good standing in fellowship.

So member-minister folks, the next time you think anointed saints of God are just out to preacher-bash...consider your own thoughts and responses to topics like this thread.