Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Where is the reference to the Trinity and the Eternal Son? Also is this known to be genuine or is it spurious? Many such letters like that are spurious or contain interpolations
Again, where is the word Trinity and where is the Eternal Son? That is what you were saying earlier. Also Justin Martyr at best was an Arian and at worst a Polytheist...I can provide some quotes if you like
Another one of those letters Im not sure is supposed to be genuine or spurious however it does not say "Trinity" nor does it teach an Eternal Son
Right, now this isn't exaclty "hundreds of years" though. That was my question. You said hudreds of years
Again, I don't see "Trinity" nor "Eternal Son"
OK, there's a guy who says "Trinity" and has an Eternal Son...was this hundreds of years before Nicea?
The quotes you have from 200+ years before hand don't say "Trinity" nor "Eternal Son" nor do they really even teach a Trinity.
And at best some of them may be genuine, but as I said even if they are they don't say Trinity nor Eternal Son. That stuff came a while later and a lot closer to Nicea. It was a doctrine in development. In some of the others you have question marks for the dates, which indicates the dates are speculative and not known. Often the reason for that is that it is not even known for sure if the article itself is genuine or spurious
I'd have to take more time later to check them out and see
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LOL!!! Listen Praxeas the letters are originals! I have read them, and pulled the quotes myself – check it out at will. They early letters did not state “trinity” but the distinctions are clear and incredibly evident – no one can ignore it, well they can but they should not! Okay my point is this:
One of the assailants of the Trinitarian doctrine David Bernard, a modern icon of the United Pentecostal Church, his books are hot sellers among that group and of them all his book the
Oneness of GOD is a staple for the modern
oneness congregant – in that book it states:
"The Scriptures do not teach the doctrine of the trinity, but trinitarianism has its roots in paganism" (David Bernard/
Oneness of God)
Well now then, isn’t that special?
The truth of the matter is the doctrine was evident biblically among the first church in a scriptural manner – by that I mean Paul, Peter, and John etc…. then to their successors and so on – in fact you’ll find incredible historical documentation supporting the doctrine of the Trinity. Though not coined at that time…….
From the apostles to the church fathers, and to modern day – this history is very helpful in aiding us to understand the thought process alive in the early church. – and the doctrine it espoused….
When I say early church I mean times as early as 50 AD to 70 AD to 200 AD very early Christianity –
The church fathers are demonized by some as being pagan, and corrupt, and so on, there is little documentation to show that – it is worthy however to note that if every bible in the world was destroyed totally – we could reconstruct the entire word of GOD from the letters and writings of the Church Fathers – that’s how much they used and respected the WORD of GOD
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and
heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Very evident distinctions Polycarp makes here- still calling JESUS the high priest and Son – present tense- whom has glory “with HIM” so give me a break – sounds like “eternal son” the implications are certainly present
- Next is some early instruction on baptism
The Didache (35-60): "baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, ……. (Against Heresies X.l)
Note the eternal title of JESUS as “The Son of GOD” who became incarnate – his sonship preceeded his incarnation… interesting distinction is made here
Tertullian (160-215). A major apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. Very respected and influential
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Of great interest is this – because anti-trinitarians attest that the doctrine of the trinity was the molding of Emperor Constantine’s pagan theologies, with a politically motivated Catholicism, and that my friends is a lie – Constantines Nicean Counsel was in 325 AD - these quotes date some 200 plus years before this counsel.
And Tertullian any way at 100 plus years…. Is that really a lot closer to Nicea? A WHOLE CENTURY BEFORE!!!!!!
Seems like a fair amount of time Praxeas– a century plus some
Anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325. However history vehemently disagrees.
Anti – Trinitarians such as author David Bernard assess that the doctrine developed in the bowels of paganism – history shows that the doctrine was common place discussion and teaching in the early church by church leaders, early AD 70, early AD 100 through to the 200’s and beyond!
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