3 in 1 - I'M MORE ONENESS THAN YOU ARE ...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

eternally begotten and trinity where used LONG before Nicea Bro - hundreds of years before

lol...hundreds of years. Just how many hundreds of years? Can you give the date and the person?
Let's remember the original Nicean council was 320 AD...was it 120 AD? that would be about 200 years...or did you mean three hundred years back to 20 AD?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

just some info for reference

The truth of the matter is the doctrine was evident biblically among the first church in a scriptural manner – by that I mean Paul, Peter, and John etc…. then to their successors and so on – in fact you’ll find incredible historical documentation supporting the doctrine of the Trinity - and or the doctrine of distinction for the weak at heart LOL!!

Oneness Pentecostals believe in a distinction. Ok? They deny that distinction is one of hypostasis or individual whos

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Chan

Tertullian used the word "trinitas," not the English word "trinity" (English did not exist as a language yet). As for whether there was a trinity doctrine before the Nicene Creed, that is subject to debate. Even so, one must ask "Which version of the trinity doctrine"? Just because Father, Son and Holy Spirit are mentioned doesn't mean those who mentioned them believed they were (to quote some modern statements of faith) "three co-equal, co-eternal divine persons." The phrase "eternally begotten" was not in the original Nicene Creed. The original phrase was a Greek phrase that translates into the English "begotten before all worlds" (as used in the Eastern Orthodox version of the Creed). The phrase "eternally begotten" is an oxymoron because the word "begotten" necessitates having a beginning and the word "eternally" necessitates that the thing has not only been occurring throughout all of eternity "past" but that it will continue to occur throughout all of eternity "future." Thus, the phrase "eternally begotten" means that Jesus has always been in the process of being begotten and will always be in the process of being begotten.

Then, of course, there's the whole thing about an economic trinity and an immanent trinity.

For further reading: http://www.amazon.com/Three-Examinat...e=UTF8&s=books

Sameless plug

Anyways...how about Justins? He is claimed as a Trinitarian father....yet he had more than one Lord and more than one God and that second God, Jesus, was lessor to some degree...sounds Arianistic

[StillStanding]

I haven't read this thread, but after I read the title I couldn't help but write this:

I am so Oneness that I..............

only use one club when I golf!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Pianoman

I haven't read this thread, but after I read the title I couldn't help but write this:

I am so Oneness that I..............

only use one club when I golf!

PianoMan you might be fairly Oneness but you'll never be as Oneness as I am.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

PianoMan you might be fairly Oneness but you'll never be as Oneness as I am.

You just THINK you're oneness! I have a one track mind! ha!

[sola gratia]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

lol...hundreds of years. Just how many hundreds of years? Can you give the date and the person?
Let's remember the original Nicean council was 320 AD...was it 120 AD? that would be about 200 years...or did you mean three hundred years back to 20 AD?

I alreadly listed the dates on a post - perhaps you missed it

here is an excerpt

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Next is some early instruction on baptism
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, ……. (Against Heresies X.l)


Tertullian (160-215). A major apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. Very respected and influential
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
Origen
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
Of great interest is this – because anti-trinitarians attest that the doctrine of the trinity was the molding of Emperor Constantine’s pagan theologies, with a politically motivated Catholicism, and that is a lie – Constantines Nicean Counsel was in 325 AD - these quotes date some 200 plus years before this counsel.
Anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325. However history vehemently disagrees.
Anti – Trinitarians assess that the doctrine developed in the bowels of paganism – history shows that the doctrine was common place discussion and teaching in the church by church leaders, early AD 70, early AD 100 through to the 200’s and beyond!
This history is not supposition and propaganda but credible, scholarly accepted documentation, of early church view.

[SDG]

Hey Prax .. watcha think about my buddy SG??? ... he's relentless.

[Carpenter]

I can hear the pitter patter of Brother Epley's feet stomping over to this thread...

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by sola gratia

I alreadly listed the dates on a post - perhaps you missed it

here is an excerpt

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty...I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Where is the reference to the Trinity and the Eternal Son? Also is this known to be genuine or is it spurious? Many such letters like that are spurious or contain interpolations

Next is some early instruction on baptism
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Again, where is the word Trinity and where is the Eternal Son? That is what you were saying earlier. Also Justin Martyr at best was an Arian and at worst a Polytheist...I can provide some quotes if you like

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ...one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, ……. (Against Heresies X.l)

Another one of those letters Im not sure is supposed to be genuine or spurious however it does not say "Trinity" nor does it teach an Eternal Son

Tertullian (160-215). A major apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity. Very respected and influential
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation...[which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Right, now this isn't exaclty "hundreds of years" though. That was my question. You said hudreds of years

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

Again, I don't see "Trinity" nor "Eternal Son"

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
Origen

OK, there's a guy who says "Trinity" and has an Eternal Son...was this hundreds of years before Nicea?

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification..." (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
Of great interest is this – because anti-trinitarians attest that the doctrine of the trinity was the molding of Emperor Constantine’s pagan theologies, with a politically motivated Catholicism, and that is a lie – Constantines Nicean Counsel was in 325 AD - these quotes date some 200 plus years before this counsel.
Anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325. However history vehemently disagrees.
Anti – Trinitarians assess that the doctrine developed in the bowels of paganism – history shows that the doctrine was common place discussion and teaching in the church by church leaders, early AD 70, early AD 100 through to the 200’s and beyond!
This history is not supposition and propaganda but credible, scholarly accepted documentation, of early church view.

The quotes you have from 200+ years before hand don't say "Trinity" nor "Eternal Son" nor do they really even teach a Trinity.

And at best some of them may be genuine, but as I said even if they are they don't say Trinity nor Eternal Son. That stuff came a while later and a lot closer to Nicea. It was a doctrine in development. In some of the others you have question marks for the dates, which indicates the dates are speculative and not known. Often the reason for that is that it is not even known for sure if the article itself is genuine or spurious

I'd have to take more time later to check them out and see